"i think this comes into it. If we do an Oversway. We have a curve from our toe to our head. That we call a curve. If the same amount of curve is used back we call it an arched back."

No, becuase the CURVE IS NOT LOCATED AT THE LOWER BACK. Most of it is at the knee and hip socket, the rest is in the UPPER back. We see a "curve" but what we are actually look at is a collection of straight line segments.

(Think about a ballerina with her arms out making a gracefully round shape in front of her. Is she bending her bones? Of course not - but it sure looks like it!)

"The reason it is neccessary to arch the back for both the man and the lady is because the left leg is taken behind by the lady and there is no change in the conection between the bodies. The right side to right side is still there."

There's no need to arch your back... learn to use your legs, stop trying to overshape, and you will do great!

"The text books all say the lady should not arch her back, but almost every single photo of champion dancers shows the lady doing precisely this."

A lady's back will naturally be somewhat more curved than a man's, but what you see often goes mistakenly far beyond that.

If the lady is really getting her backwards poise right, the "arch" will move up to her upper back (where it takes the form of shoulders down and back) and down to her hip and knee JOINTS. Note that I don't mean the angle of the pelvis, which must stay aligned (in the context of a lady's anatomy) to her trunk, but instead an angle formed by the femur in the pelvis.
That's quite dramatically demonstrated in a throwaway oversway - at first glance there's a huge arch in the lady's back, but in fact most of it is her trunk vs. her thigh.

Anonymous & Quickstep,

We should produce shape in many movements while dancing. More in some that in others. One should leverage all the joints appropriately in producing shape as opposed to freezing one or more joins when producing shape.
The shapes are produced in two planes ie. curves (toe to head) and rotation (side to side). If we combine the curve and rotation we have torsion.

If one froze the body below the spine
and only attempted to produce a curve (shape) in the spine alone then one could have an ugly arching of the back. However if one produced a shape through torsion from the floor by using the ankles, knees and hips; allowing it to develop through the spine then there would be an appropriate amount of curving of the spine itself. Of course it does not stop there as the shape continues through the neck and head. I'm loath to call this an arch in the back because 'arch' has a somewhat negative connotation in Standard but there is definitely an appropriate amount of curving of the spine itself. In other words all the vertebrae should be appropriately leveraged in the 'toe to head' plane.

I hope I'm not really telling either of you anything new. Perhaps, your disagreement is about the stuff you're not clarifying to each other.

Rha

So it isn't an arch of the back but instead a curve starting at the feet through the head and to an imaginary line through the top of the head going all the way to the ceiling. Hence no arching of the back. That is what can be seen on videos.

"So it isn't an arch of the back but instead a curve starting at the feet through the head and to an imaginary line through the top of the head going all the way to the ceiling. Hence no arching of the back. That is what can be seen on videos."

No quickstep, you must learn to read more carefully.

THERE IS AN OVERALL ARCH OF THE BODY.

*but*

THE ARCH IS NOT LOCATED IN THE LOWER BACK

Instead it is produced at the joints - the knee, hip socket, and to a lesser extent uppper back.

Nobody will be able to entirely elminate arch in their lower back, but it is not supposed to be there.

From my experience of serious quad muscle stretching (doing it properly) i know how diffidult it is to draw the upper leg behind me, while keeping my pelvis in the normal standing position ('neutral')
Try this experiment.
Lie on the floor with your hips comfortably flat on the floor and legs resting on the floor.
Now stretch up your upper back so you're resting comfortably on your fore-arms (keep whole of forearm on the floor). move nothing else. this is a good back stretching exercise (is it called the 'cobra' or is that more extreme?). If you're resonably flexible, you will have a nicely curved back.
Now try to lift a leg off the floor. Keep it straight.
Difficult to raise it much, so do what you have to to raise it.
What i have to do is rotate my pelvis back(i.e. take the end nearest my legs off the floor). To keep my upper body supported on my forearms, i inevitably have a much greater 'break' at, or around my waist.
This is what happens for the lady in a throwaway oversway (and probably other picture steps). To move her left leg back and create a big attractive picture, without bending her leg at the knee considerably, she must rotate her pelvis back, and there will be an increased 'break' at the waist. There are no other options without un-natural flexibility. Her hips are supported by the man's left leg, which is just at the correct angle to do this.
The photos from recent pro-standard world championships clearly show the ladies doing this.It's a pity we can't post these photos here.
For a similar reason, it's very difficult for a lady to take a long backward step without either bending the knee a lot or rotating her pelvis, which will produce a break at the waist.
Stand with one foot forward and one foot back, separated by about a metre. Have your trunk upright in between your feet. Now tell me your pelvis is in the neutral position (i.e. as it was standing with feet together).
Even an unsophisticated observer could tell you that it isn't. You can get it neutral by bending the backward knee a lot.
The human body has evolved to allow the legs to come forward very comfortably, but not to go back very much (i'm talking femur)

"From my experience of serious quad muscle stretching (doing it properly) i know how diffidult it is to draw the upper leg behind me, while keeping my pelvis in the normal standing position ('neutral')"

Nonetheless, that's exactly what you need to learn to do.

"To move her left leg back and create a big attractive picture, without bending her leg at the knee considerably, she must rotate her pelvis back, and there will be an increased 'break' at the waist. There are no other options without un-natural flexibility."

Nope, she needs to free up her leg in its hip socket.

"Stand with one foot forward and one foot back, separated by about a metre. Have your trunk upright in between your feet. Now tell me your pelvis is in the neutral position (i.e. as it was standing with feet together). Even an unsophisticated observer could tell you that it isn't."

It sure is on me and any real dancer!

That's specifically one of the things you need to work on.

"The human body has evolved to allow the legs to come forward very comfortably, but not to go back very much (i'm talking femur)"

I take it you've never seen anyone do a forward-back type split? Granted that is an extreme (which I can't do), and will involve some rotation of the pelvis to favor the back leg, but anyone who can come even remotely close to that (and it seems not an unreasonble request of someone dancing at a level where dramatic, but well executed shapes are to be expected) should have no trouble doing a throwoway with their pelvis aligned to their torso.

There's a reason dancers train and mainatin their bodies, you know...

Careful Phil,
These homosexuals can become very emotional with SHOUTING when contradicted to their beliefs. Just watch this space!

Be carefull when discribing the ladies Throwaway. The step is not back. If it were contact of the body will be lost. The side will be too open. Best to go back to the pictures and check which parts of the lady is still in contact with the man.

Hi Quickstep
since i am an unsophisticatd ovserver(!) i daren't answer this. I only know that we're being asked to keep contact between lady's right hip/thigh and my left side hip/thigh. you're right - it's not a step back, the lady's right foot will be alongside the man's left foot (inside it)with most of her weight on it, but of course she 'throws' her left leg behind her.
I'm waiting now to be corrected.It's great to get these free lessons