If you can explain how if two people can take the same length of step at the same time and one can rotate around the other then be my guest. Anticipating that your answer will be they take smaller steps. Well that is correct. What would you say that was doing exactly. You really need John Wood's tape who touches this subject.
Correct my homework by letting me know from any technique book where it says there is a difference in one step forward on the heel from one dance to the other.To quote a Shakespeare. A step by any other name is still a step.
Oh Dear. Are there not pauses in the music. Do we not tarry a while on an Open Telemark. Do we not somtime get to the front of the music and say to ourselves Let us tarry a while and let the music on yon lute catch up. As my friend Will would say. Dont be such a twit.

"If you can explain how if two people can take the same length of step at the same time and one can rotate around the other then be my guest."

Nobody ever said they should. So quite CHANGING THE TOPIC - every time you get into a tight spot, that's your first instinct, isn't it.

"Correct my homework by letting me know from any technique book where it says there is a difference in one step forward on the heel from one dance to the other."

You obviously haven't been reading with much care. Reread the ENTIRE THING and report back.

"Oh Dear. Are there not pauses in the music."

Not usually.

"Do we not tarry a while on an Open Telemark."

Different situation - you are risen there. But you still mistakenly believe on a pause somewhere around the slow in the feather, DONT YOU.

"Do we not somtime get to the front of the music and say to ourselves Let us tarry a while and let the music on yon lute catch up."

I'm sure YOU DO. And I used to often myself in my first year or two of dancing. But then I learned not to move too fast in the first place. Once you learn to aim your actions with more care in TIME AND SPACE you will not have to wait for the music to catch up with you any more. In fact, sometimes you will let it get ahead of you (by moving slower, not by stopping) and then artsistically catch up.

I suppose we have to define a pause first. To me a pause is not a stop. Not like our DVD player where a pause is actually a dead stop. To me I take the other meaning a rest to be lengthened by an unspecified amount. This is now being taught. On a Feather there is a gathering of weight or if you like a balance point or a neutral position, a neutral position which means that the body is squarely over the feet. There is one at the end of the preperation step. There is also a balance point at the end of the first step and at the end of the Feather which is counted four and, and this continues throughout the dance. Don' t blame me I am only quoting John Wood.
If I come over to your way of thinking. I would have to pause my feet if as you say the body goes ahead of the feet. And as we all know by now that the feet naturally move twice the spead of the body. It wouldn' t do any harm to recognise that dancing is not a science. That's why we see a books called. The Art of Ballroom Dancing. I've never seen one called. The Science of Ballroom Dancing or ever will.

"I suppose we have to define a pause first. To me a pause is not a stop. Not like our DVD player where a pause is actually a dead stop. To me I take the other meaning a rest to be lengthened by an unspecified amount. This is now being taught."

If you mean a slowing, then say so. Don't say pause when you don't mean an actual pause!

"On a Feather there is a gathering of weight or if you like a balance point or a neutral position, a neutral position which means that the body is squarely over the feet. There is one at the end of the preperation step. There is also a balance point at the end of the first step and at the end of the Feather which is counted four and, and this continues throughout the dance. Don' t blame me I am only quoting John Wood."

But you are misunderstanding his purpose! When someone brings out a pause there, they are doing it to show the pieces of the puzzle. The actual action, when "really dancing" will be smoothly blended. It will have changes of speed, but no pauses, and no HESISTATION when lowered, only when up.

"If I come over to your way of thinking. I would have to pause my feet if as you say the body goes ahead of the feet."

Most of us pause the foot we are standing on! It then has to catch up to the body. If the body passes over the standing foot slightly before the moving foot has caught up with it - which is a quite common aspect of how the best dancers project their centers into the movement - then the body is briefly going to be ahead of BOTH feet.

"It wouldn' t do any harm to recognise that dancing is not a science."

Nothing is a science. Science is a formalized study of something else, which works all by itself. The science of dancing is the study of how dance works, just as the science of astronomy is the study of the dance of the heavans. But the science is only the explantion, it is not the act of doing the thing being explained.

"That's why we see a books called. The Art of Ballroom Dancing. I've never seen one called. The Science of Ballroom Dancing or ever will."

99% of what is in the book is watered down science. In fact, a lot of what would be in any "art class" is going to be science like. The "art" you mostly have to add yourself.

A beginner might ask how with the body in front of the foot. How do the feet once again get in front of the body. It must happen otherwise we will fall over. Something has got to give. Is it possible the body pauses for a mocro second.
Just bye the bye. I had a look at the new Alex Moore's book. On the front paper cover it has a couple of Argentine Tango dancers pictured which take up most of the page. Everything else seems the same except it is a bigger book with larger print

Quickstep
I don't think it's difficult to see how the body can move ahead of the feet. Not for a long time, but it can happen. The flight of the body is controlled by the standing foot and the dynamics of the movement. I believe i do this on waltz natural turns, maybe also in some tango movements (i'm not certain - must check with a video camera someday).
Nothing has to give and the body doesn't stop for any length of time.
We would fall over if we tried to stop with the body in advance of the feet, of course. Sprinters coming out of the blocks don't fall over, yet their body is well in front of the feet. Same with racket players moving quickly to play a shot.
How fast the feet move is not a real issue. The legs and feet do what's necessary to move the body. That's what counts.

Phil. I agree with most of what you say. I would change the word feet to foot. The body will go ahead of the standing foot. Not the moving foot. It may draw level, but I can find nowhere where the body is in front of the moving foot. I have looked at the Reverse Turn Waltz and the Feather Step on this site in the Learn the Dances.. I think we can take the Ladies backward steps out of this. It would be ridiculace to suggest that the ladies body is in front of the moving leg as it moves to its position to the rear. If it can be pointed out where and in which dance the verticle body which is being carried by the legs is in front A sprinter is not a good example unless we look after the start and before they dive at the finish. A better one to watch is an 800 metre race and watch how the body which is flying stays between the legs and appears motionless. If I understand correctly the technique in running is to keep the body from wavering and the head still. If you went right back to the beginning I wrote it is not a good idea to tell beginners to send there body ahead of the feet to a positi0on of imbalance and to fall onto the supporting foot. The lady also. The actuall words written were I insist on it.
To carry on a look at the still pictures of a Forward and Backward Walk at this Learning Centre. If you were to read Alex Moore' s description which says from a standing position the weight of the body is moved from the heel to the ball. If you look at picture number one and two that is exactly what you will see. This is where the foot moves twice the speed of the body which has been calculated as being so.
If we get back to the sprinters. If their feet was not going faster than the body they would never stand up would they.
Going back to square one. The movement of the body from two standing legs is from the heel to the ball this is where the foot travelling faster than the body occures. Look at the pictures. This is exactly what Alex Moore wrote all those years ago.

The body will go ahead of the standing foot. Not the moving foot."

No, it will go ahead of the moving foot too. That's what we've been trying to explain to you for months, but you just can't wrap your mind around the idea.

"I have looked at the Reverse Turn Waltz and the Feather Step on this site in the Learn the Dances.."

It *should* be happening there, but that doesn't mean it will on any given dancer.

"I think we can take the Ladies backward steps out of this. It would be ridiculace to suggest that the ladies body is in front of the moving leg as it moves to its position to the rear."

He body will be ahead of both feet at times, for example right as she begins step 3 of the feather, her body hip will pass over her feet just before her moving foot seperates from her standing foot. At this point the man is of course doing the same thing in his forwards action.

"If you went right back to the beginning I wrote it is not a good idea to tell beginners to send there body ahead of the feet to a positi0on of imbalance and to fall onto the supporting foot. The lady also. The actuall words written were I insist on it."

Nonetheless that is what HAS TO HAPPEN, though it might be more accurate to say that the fall goes through the receiving foot and beyond it, rather than simply onto it. This falling is afterall mostly a horizontal motion, with only a proportionaly small vertical component. Say that someone falls onto the receiving leg, and you create the impression that they crash heavily onto it, which would indeed be a mistake. But falling is most certainly invovled - it's just very well-aimed falling that is mostly horizontal.

"If you were to read Alex Moore' s description which says from a standing position the weight of the body is moved from the heel to the ball."

And after that it will, in a way that is obvious to everyone but you, be BEYOND the ball of the standing foot.

"This is where the foot moves twice the speed of the body which has been calculated as being so."

That is FALSE and not to be found in any reputable source. You've already had it pointed out how this claim is physically impossible - it would require instant acceleartion of the feet, which cannot happen. On average the feet move twice as fast, but not during their entire travel - at the beginning and end of their travel, they obviously will be moving SLOWER than the body. And that is the part you keep forgetting.

"Going back to square one. The movement of the body from two standing legs is from the heel to the ball this is where the foot travelling faster than the body occures. Look at the pictures. This is exactly what Alex Moore wrote all those years ago."

But that is neither correct nor what he wrote. The weight goes from the heel, to the ball, and then beyond the ball. During this time, the foot is accelerating to catch up to the body (or in waltz, accelerating from a dead stop). By the time the stride is well underway the foot will indeed be moving approximately twice as fast as the body. But not earlier, at a time when it's only just started moving, then it will be moving SLOWER THAN THE BODY, because the body ALWAYS MOVES FIRST.

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It might be worth looking at the rise and the fall on the ladies heel turn.
Rise at the end of one NFR. Continue to rise on two. up on three, lower at the end of three. The foot has got to be out in front to be able to lower on three. Otherwise they would fall onto three.
Its worth pointing out at this time that in the Waltz or Foxtrot there are basic rules which have to be obeyed. They are after both a Heel Lead , or a Toe Heel the knee must bend. On a Toe the knee doesn't bend. Obey those rules at all times.
Alex Moore was a very clever man and very methodical. Don' t you think if he wanted the body to go ahead of the foot he would have said so. If I had to write that as an instruction, I would have written. The whole of your body must go from the verticle to a point where with a straight spine your head is in front of your front foot. That in any mans language would be with a straight spine leaning forward in front of my front foot..Which is absolutely wrong.

"t might be worth looking at the rise and the fall on the ladies heel turn.
Rise at the end of one NFR. Continue to rise on two. up on three, lower at the end of three. The foot has got to be out in front to be able to lower on three. Otherwise they would fall onto three."

No one has contradicted that in their arguments.

"Alex Moore was a very clever man and very methodical. Don' t you think if he wanted the body to go ahead of the foot he would have said so."

He very nearly DID say so, when he said to feel that the body commences to move before the foot. But dancing in his day was less dynamic, meaning that the body would not have gone as far in front of the foot, and in as many situations, as it does today. Without really changing the technique, just cranking up certain proportions of it will change some of the situations through which we now end up passing.

"If I had to write that as an instruction, I would have written. The whole of your body must go from the verticle to a point where with a straight spine your head is in front of your front foot. That in any mans language would be with a straight spine leaning forward in front of my front foot..Which is absolutely wrong."

THAT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENS!!

You've had this explained to you many times: the veritcal body moves forward, MAINTAINING VERTICAL ALIGNMENT, and thus passes forward of the foot. It does not do it by TILTING, it does it by MOVING.