"I've been pondering your reply, which makes sense. I'm wondering how does the man lead this?. Or does he? If the man opens more than the lady, how does the lady know when to stop her rotation? Does my question make sense?
The problem i've had is over-rotation"

Probably what he should do is stop his body sideways to the intended direction of travel or even slightly less turned than that. The lady won't be able to rotate her body more than his. If he then steps out in promenade with the slightest degree of backwards feeling, he will take the couple out in a very nice, closed to each other promenade configuration. People describe this as the man feeling like he's moving over his left shoulder.

It's also worth simply working on the body configuration for the step through in promenade. You don't want to feel like your hip is rotating. Instead, you want to feel that back knee moving across your body. Coaches describe this as a feeling of your right knee picking up across your body towards your left shoulder.

The short form might be to say that promenade is ultimately a direction of movement relative to the bodies, not an opening out of the bodies relative to each other.

Anonymous. The answer for the lady not coming around far enough, so I am told on an Open Telemark, is because they turn their head to promenade, see where they need to go, and think they have arrived and step out.. Usually they haven't. Untill they become more experienced they can keep there head to the left throughout. Do the same on a Whisk and also a Wing. One of those positions is advised by Len Scrivener in his book. The Reverse Fallaway is another where many of our top dancers keep their head to the left throughout.
See Karen Hilton's Foxtrot. on youtube.
Something that sometimes doesn't get taken into consideration is when speaking about rising on three is that it is on a curve( sway ). It straightens on the ( and ) which is part of beat three. That's never been spoken about before has it.

"Anonymous. The answer for the lady not coming around far enough, so I am told on an Open Telemark, is because they turn their head to promenade, see where they need to go, and think they have arrived and step out.. Usually they haven't. Untill they become more experienced they can keep there head to the left throughout."

Intentionally keeping the head unchanged in promenade can indeed be a good learning tool for a while.

Another is to vary the choreography a significant enough fraction of the time that the lady cannot safely assume that a figure is going to end in promenade, and will only discover that it has after the fact. This keeps all of the cause and effect mechanisms between the partners playing their intended roles, with no "cheating" by either. Plus it gives the couple the tools they'll need to artfully deal with coming around and discovering that someone has stolen the space they were planning to move into.

" . . . they turn their head to promenade, see where they need to go, and think they have arrived and step out."

This problem is caused when the lady executes her figure from memory and doesn't following the man.

The lady should not turn her head to promenade until she feels the man's right side against her left side.

The fact that the contact is no longer on her right side tells the lady that she should turn more before rising. By doing so she eliminates the issue of being too open going into the third step.

This contact also tells her that she will step to the side and not forward as she would in a DRS in the Waltz or a Reverse Turn in the Fox Trot.

jj

Open Telemark third step. Why not simply say come around more untill if your head is in Promenade you are looking on the outside of your right arm. Another way which is often taught. Is with the head to her left going into the first step backing diag to centre. Spot something on the wall and keep looking and let the body rotate without the head which stays in one place. You are now looking to the right and yet you haven't turned your head at all. If this doesn't seem to make sense. Look to your left. keep the head in the same place and turn your shoulders and body untill the right shoulder is under your chin. That is rotating the body without moving the head. That is the type of action that can be done on an Open Telemark.

There are all kinds of little gimmicks to help one complete this figure easily. If the lady is not following properly then none of them matters.

A woman doing it in the manner which you describe would be dancing on her own. You define her turn as a self-contained operation. It is not. She is the follow and one half of a couple; it is her obligation to turn as much as her lead indicates.

Defining body turn as a function of head position turns a dancer upside down. Promenade Position is determined by the (sides of) the body. Period.

jj

"The lady should not turn her head to promenade until she feels the man's right side against her left side.

(cut)

This contact also tells her that she will step to the side and not forward as she would in a DRS in the Waltz or a Reverse Turn in the Fox Trot."

I have to disagree. The real indication is not the change of body configuration (to actually do what you describe would substantially overdo what is appropriate), but simply finding herself already moving in a direction that can only be promenade.

There's really no need to identify promenades as promenades in order to be able to dance them.

Take for example the opening of the head - there's really no problem on a lot of figures if this is delayed well into the movement of the third step. In fact it often works better - the body seems to move out from under the head and that is what turns it. Or not even turning the head at all for a while, as polished amongst others has noted. Ultimately the key thing with the head is not its orientation but it's proper position to the outside of the couple.

If you think about it, the only actual prerequisite requirement for a step out in promenade is that both dancers have their feet oriented enough into that direction of movement that it becomes possible for the legs to work in that direction. That's much more of an issue in tango though, where this step is down and the knee needs to work immediately. In waltz or foxtrot, the standing foot will automatically achieve the necessary orientation to the direction of movement in either a promenade or closed third step as that movement commences - and if the movement was well lead, it's probably already in the necessary orientation.

"The real indication is not the change of body configuration (to actually do what you describe would substantially overdo what is appropriate), but simply finding herself already moving in a direction that can only be promenade."

I'm sorry to play English teacher but I'm going to restructure your sentence to make it more clear.

"The real indication is . . . simply finding herself already moving . . . ."

I can't tell if you're using the word "indication" to mean the man's technique of leading or the appearance of the figure to an observer or something else altogether. If it's the man's technique then the statement doesn't make sense.

Exactly how does she "find herself moving" in any direction? Answer: she doesn't "find herself" doing anything. She follows the mans lead.

One problem in the Open Telemark that has not been mentioned in this exchange is that of early foot rise, especially by the lady. I know from experience that it can cause the man to open improperly. Again, a good lead into the heel turn resolves the issue.

Moving into Promenade Position to begin the third step does not "overdo what is appropriate" if the man maintains a strong right side through the turn of the second step. Otherwise, he will be tempted to use his arms to establish PP. I think that you're imagining a much more open PP than we execute.

These are matters on which I have spent many hours working with my partner. We tried a number of the gimmicks that have been mentioned. The problem with trying to turn the right shoulder to the chin is that the lady will look down at her shoulder.

I have been told by practically every teacher that I've had that 95% of the problems in any figure are caused by the lead. When I take responsibility for leading correctly, those issues are resolved.

I'm sorry if I seem to be bull-headed on this topic but there's a tendency to make issues - and their solutions - seem more complicated than they really are.

Cheers.

jj

"Exactly how does she "find herself moving" in any direction? Answer: she doesn't "find herself" doing anything. She follows the mans lead."

And in so doing, she finds herself in promenade without having done anything explicitly thought of as "oh, now we're opening to promenade". The point is that there really is no explicit opening to promenade, there is just movement that is in a direction that happens to merit the label promenade, and very tiny changes in body configuration relative to the partner to support that.

"Moving into Promenade Position to begin the third step does not "overdo what is appropriate""

But trying to consciously create a feeling of his right side to her left side probably will overdo the opening.
The point of promenade is not to change the body configuration as a signal and then move, it's to move in the desired direction and along the way adjust the body configuration to the degree practical necessary to make that movement comfortable and elegant.

Every movement in the execution of any figure is made consciously at the beginning of the learning process. Through repetitive practice and improvement the explicit thought becomes second nature, the conscious becomes subconscious.

Exactly how would you instruct a lower level student to perform a new figure without being aware of the movements they are making? Saying "Do this!" and executing the movement for them doesn't work for 99.99% of the dancing population.

The point of establshing promenade POSITION is precisely what you say it isn't. Otherwise, you're expecting the follow to pop into the promenade from memory.

Through practice, the lady must learn to make adjustments to the man's movements (or "signals" if you want to use that word) until they become automatic. If not, then she isn't following and, if he needs to alter his floorcraft for situational purposes, her response will be awkward.

One video that I saw of Luca and Lorraine showed them in the gorgeous ballroom in their home. In other words, the magnificence that we see in the very best dancers (and which P/s/Q thinks beginners should be able to pick up immediately) comes from constant practice. Even they began somewhere.

jj