talking about the last three steps of a waltz reverse turn, say, for the man, on the inside of the turn. the question seems to be at what point is the heel of step 1 released. it is down (just ?) at the e/o 1 as the feet pass. but then it could come off as the moving foot moves towards its final position as step 2 is taken, or as the final position is reached [and weight transferred] or sometime after ie as step 3 is taken. whatever the answer it is obviously different for the corresponding steps in foxtrot where there isnt nfr and the ftwk is tht - so in the latter case the heel presumably comes up again almost immediately after it lowers ie as step 2 moves past the passing position. my inclination then is to think that in waltz the heel must stay down for longer, otherwise no distinction would be made between the two dances - but obviously there is a point where keeping the heel down becomes awkward - so again the question is at wahat point does heel release occur. a related question is what is the "alignment" of the standing foot as step 2 is placed ie does it stay where it was facing (backing)at the e/o 1.

Polished. you confuse me. on the one hand you seem to be a stickler for standardised technique but on the other hand you base a lot of your thinking on what todays professionals are doing which of course is different. i am personally more interested in the standardised technique because (a) that is what is being examined - undesirable though this situation might be, and (b) it is hard enough to understand the standardised technique leave alone all the variations, which to an extent just muddies the water. I agree it is interesting that technique is diverging, for better or worse i do not know, and may be many of the details make little difference, but i will not be able to decide until i have understand the original technique to the point where its foundations become clear.

"Talking about the last three steps of a waltz reverse turn, say, for the man, on the inside of the turn. the question seems to be at what point is the heel of step 1 released. it is down (just ?) at the e/o 1 as the feet pass. but then it could come off as the moving foot moves towards its final position as step 2 is taken, or as the final position is reached [and weight transferred] or sometime after ie as step 3 is taken."

On the inside of turn NFR step, the stan ding heel stays down until the moving foot has found its final position. On the video here, it appears to rise just as the moving foot stops moving across the floor, but before the moving foot does a little roll from the inside edge to to ball of foot - a roll which seems to include the final turn to the ultimate alignment.

"but obviously there is a point where keeping the heel down becomes awkward - so again the question is at wahat point does heel release occur."

I think you just named it - the point at which keeping it down is no longer advantageous.

"a related question is what is the "alignment" of the standing foot as step 2 is placed ie does it stay where it was facing (backing)at the e/o 1."

The standing foot is usually stationary as the moving foot is placed, but may then rotate against the floor as the weight arrives on the moving foot.

Interested. When anonymous says in paragraph two 8/14/08
The standing heel stays down untill the moving foot has found its final position.That is exactly right, at last.
This is a learning thing. I will ask you why is it neccessary to do it that way. Why not raise the heel imediatally as the person on the outside of the turn does.
I will also ask out of the five dances which three have the same action throughout. And again if this is not done correctly what is the end result.
Anonymouse . It's good to see that at last you've finaly clicked
Clive .It would be more correct to say. Between step one and two
For a bit of additional information. In his book Victor Silvester who introduced the Natural Turn says. For the lady make 3/8ths of a turn between steps 1 and 2.Step three doesn't get a mention. On the second half of the turn for the man step six doesn't have any turn. I'm not saying its right or wrong, just what is written. and how it was being performed for years.
Being a musician as well as a Professional dancer. I think if it had been around Victor would have recorded
" Look What They've Done To My song Ma "!!!.

"Anonymouse . It's good to see that at last you've finaly clicked"

The only thing that's changed is that you've finally decided to actually read what someone else wrote, instead of pretending that they said something different than what they actually did.

Nobody seems to be capable of answering the question I posed. Why is there a NFR. What will be the result if the lady rises on step one of a Natural Turn. Or step one of the first step of a Quarter Turn in the Quickstep
Or Step one in the Natural Turn V. Waltz.
Probably the V. Waltz is the most vulnerable. Come on you experts. Lets hear it.
Just reading through some of the earlier writing. Guys there is no swing onto step two of a Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot. Has any thought been given to what would happen to the lady if there was.

"Guys there is no swing onto step two of a Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot."

On the contrary, swing plays a critical role in this step.

It's more obvious in the man where it is a large full body action, but there is swing of the hips in the lady as well.

To answer your other question, NFR is used on the inside of any turn in which the inside partner swings up to the outside one. In the feather finish, the man is not swinging up to the lady as in the other turns, so he does not have NFR to stay "under" her, instead the situation develops to one where she swings under him.

Anonymous. Re you last statement. Is this related to the need for a variable step size and need for a smaller step size when swinging up to the outside one.

Good questions Polished. I would say W and QS are similar FT is different in the respects discussed. In outline, I'd say to do with the need for progression in foxtrot (ie heel release can be used to give a longer stride in ft) but keeping it down longer helps delay the rise and fall in waltz.

"Good questions Polished. I would say W and QS are similar FT is different in the respects discussed. In outline, I'd say to do with the need for progression in foxtrot (ie heel release can be used to give a longer stride in ft) but keeping it down longer helps delay the rise and fall in waltz."

It is not due to the waltz vs. foxtrot difference, but to the need to set up the man vs. woman difference for a continuity (passing) 3rd step.

We can see this from that way that in all three dances there is an open reverse turn which is somewhat like a reverse roles feather finish, however the lady has NFR instead of the THT that the man has in the feather finish.

Anonymous. The reason for NFR is so simple it gets overlooked. No Foot Rise will enable the couple to stay in the same position that they start in. If this is not done correctly they will lose there centre and spend the rest of the turn trying to get back to where they should be. Is it possible to dance without NFR. Yes, but it will never be clean and tidy, and the man will start to use strength instead of grace to get to where he knows he should be.
I'm a bit of an observer. I watch this couple who are Senior Competitors. They start with a Feather Step Three Step into a Wave. It is beautifully performed, it really is. But as regular as clockwork when they come out of the Wave to do another Feather Step they've lost it and start to struggle. What has happend is they have lost there centres. I suspect that between them their technique has gone out the window.
ALso some friends of mine on their first visit to the UK in their first lesson never got past the first three of the Natural in the Waltz without being told that the lady was out by some two inches by the time they closed their feet on three. I'll give you one guess what the reason was. Cheers