Panther,

This quote from Jim Loy says it well from a musical (rather than dance) point of view.

But the main feature of a Viennese waltz is that those three beats per measure are not played evenly. The first beat is right on the money; the second is played slightly early; and the third is slightly late. The rhythm is slightly jerky, like the hint of a hickup. The effect is obvious, if done authentically, as Austrian orchestras always do. The director directs one beat per measure, giving only the first of the three beats, by the way.

OB

Sorry if the HTML didn't work on this post.

I think you'll find good Viennese Waltz dance music is played in Strict Tempo but not neccessarily Strict Time. Strict Tempo and Strict Time are not the same thing.

In an old style or classical viennese besides playing with time within the bar to give a distinctive feel you have other issues of time like ritardando, accelerando, etc. to deal with which is why some people say you can't dance ballroom to classical music.

With strict tempo there are the same number of beats over a measured time period. The time period between the downbeats will be exact. So between measures the first strong beat of every bar will be equally spaced. But the time between the first and second and second and third beat within the bar are not neccassarily exactly equal. In a synthesized production no doubt they will be exactly equal (and consequently mechanical sounding).

I remember watching good fox trotters when I first started ballroom. I was vary aware that the dancers were very precise on the downbeat but the steps in between seemed oddly out of sync. I was also aware that the teachers I was first exposed to were very precise in counting out timing in group classes but that there own dancing filled with rubato. If I asked about it they would just say, "Slow, Quick, Quick" or whatever very precisely.

When I finally reached a top level teacher the concentration was less on the beat and more on the phrasing in the music. "Forget the time. Dance the melody in your head,"is more what he says to my wife and I.

I think that's the beginning of turning steps into dance. Then again, I apologize if I'm talking over my level.

OB

PantherSon,

You're right. PC probably is getting more than he was really asking. Your also right about this being a good technical thread.

In my own case I came to ballroom after being involved in a strong music background. It was quite difficult for awhile because I had a strong tendency to put everything on the beat. Music got in the way. Luckily, my wife and I study with a teacher and what we would call in music a "finisher". (I don't know what the similar term would be in dance). Regardless, our finisher is always giving me heck for being too precise time-wise.

Today, my wife and I were working with a fellow on his tango. We were covering reverse turns partner inline and partner outside. As we analyzed the difference for him it was evident to us that to put partner outside required a slightly faster body speed on the 2nd quick. For us there is a difference in time.

Now we are Gold Level dancers so we still have a lot to learn and I'm the first to admit that I can be wrong. Still you bring up an interesting idea for discussion:"Do ballroom dancers really play with time or is it just a perception?"

I know that to play Viennese waltzes correctly I was always taught to play the 2nd and 3rd beats slightly off true time.

I'm sure there would be many different opinions on this and I'd like to hear them. I'm sure pc won't mind.

OB

Hey Operabob,

Did you mean that the 1st beat in classical Viennese Waltz is shorter than the 2nd one? If yes, then I agree too. Some times I have chances to listen to them, well, seem to be old German style. A little haste followed by a little hesitation, good to listen to.

But, competition music is surely played evenly, with equal beats. The old style Viennese Waltz is played not very often socially, since not every one can enjoy it. But if it is played, I wonder how people dance? Do they step steadily as usual or a little bit syncopatedly?

Yeah, your Tango is excellent, as you described. And about our Hover technique in Waltz, any idea?

Best regards,
MSN

It would be best to ask your teacher this question. The reply will then be matched to your current dance level and your teacher's intentions.

Each beat has notionally the same duration but advanced dancers will play with the timing to suit their own style and interpretation of the music.
Many teachers take the view that the second step requires more emphasis than the first in order to accomodate the swing, and it may be that your teacher is working on developing your swing.

Be aware though that many beginners cut the third beat short by closing the feet too quickly instead of in a smooth controlled manner. Keeping the toe of the closing foot pressed to the floor helps.

You don't really hold the second step, you are rising, and drawing the other leg in, which is done to help maintain balance. However you must be able to, one the second beat, draw the other leg where you want it, and be down on the leg you drew in, with all weight on it, so that the other leg is free and ready to take a power step out on the 3 beat. Being down on the 3rd beat is the most important thing in waltz from what I've experienced. You'll get off balance with your partner and also won't have a very good power stroke if you don't. But dragging the other foot in and settling your weight on it takes a while

THe emphasis is on the two beat. It isn't exactly longer. Most counts go 1...2.3. It goes 1.2......3 Hard to explain

I think I'd agree with the other reply that said you should ask your teacher for a clarification. He/She will be able to give you a better idea of exactly what he/she wants you to try to do. However, I've been told the same sort of thing, but I think it's a bit more of a feeling than a real timing change. The swing is a big part of waltz and you're trying to get a pendulum type action. On the two count you're rising, but heading towards the peak, so your swing should be slowing down in much the same way a pendulum reaching its maximum amplitude slows down. So the idea is to feel like the two count is taking longer because of that slowing swing. You top out on the three count and the swing starts down again, speeding up as you lower and head into the one. A small section of my general notes on waltz says, "music accents 1, longest step is on 2, biggest step (quickest impulse) is on 3 (leads into the 1 beat). Want to feel like the 2 count is dragged out slightly so count isn't dead even (often are dragging free foot in on step 2s also)." A lot of dancing concepts can be difficult to explain in words. If you can someone like your teacher to show them to you, it will probably be better. I hope this is of some help though.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall

I expect people would dance it slghtly off beat, matching the music. I can't say I'm familiar with VW being played slightly off beat to be authentic. Maybe if I heard some music like that I'd understand, but right now I don't. Anyway, VW has pretty clear, strong beats. If the music is being played only slightly off beat, chances are people are going to dance to what they hear. I think in a case like this it's a lot easier to tell where the beats are being played than where they're not, so people will probably dance slightly off beat, just the way the music is being played.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall

Interesting technical thread!
In the lastest reply if operabob, he showed an example of the coyote, very exciting, and I found that it's the same as what Dronak want to mention in his example of the pendulum. And many other members mentioned the hover technique. Hope that pc received more than what he had expected.

However, I want to raise another question: Does the Hover effect always occur in beat 2 of figures with basic 123 timing?

As far as I know, basic figures, e.g. Natural Turn, is danced with equal time for each step. 3 beats are equal, and no step take longer than others. But yes, we count One Twooooo Three , because the step "Twooooo" has the strongest swing, and dancers must feel it the longest step. I want to emphasize the FEELING of the step, not the time of the step itself. Beats are equal, so the steps.

The hover effect is described quite detail here, no need to repeat. I think this is for advanced dancers only, who have the ability to intepret their feelings of music by "experienced" technique. I don't think that champions hover on all beats "2" throughout their Waltzes. Hover is used to adorn the danced, and when we abuse it (in mostly figures), this will go bad.

Any idea?

Best regards,
MSN