"Anonymous. I think you will find that as the feet come together before the foot passes is called coming into a neutral position. It is at this point that the heel of the supporting foot leaves the floor."

Yes, but in a large dynamic swing the body is often beyond the feet at the time when they finally come together. The end of the step is formally defined as when the feet are together, not when they are under the body. On lower level students these will happen at the same time, but not in the more dynamic swings of expert dancers. Also many of the world class coaches ask that your heel be off the floor just before the feet pass.

"I will ask again . How much of the 3/8ths of a turn is being done over the left foot before the RF is placed into position to the side and slightly back."

That's a different question than you asked before. Previously you asked how much turn was done on step 1, and the answer is none. The answer is also none for how much turn is done "over the left foot". However, about 90 degrees of turn is done as the body is moving between the old position of where the left foot landed step 1 and the new position where the right foot landed step 2.

Most of the turn of the feet happens after the right foot has finished moving, during the time when the body is arriving towards the right foot.

Question to anymouse. Is there no turn of the feet at the end of step 1 ie after placement but before the feet pass ? There will after all be some rise before the feet pass.

Doesnt the lady start her turn on the ball of RF foot before step 2 ?

Incidentally where should the ladys RF be at the end of 1. Level with the LF (equivalent to the man) or half way towards it (given she is coming to a closed position on 2).

"Question to anymouse. Is there no turn of the feet at the end of step 1 ie after placement but before the feet pass ? There will after all be some rise before the feet pass."

According to most leading teachers the heel should break free from the floor before the feet pass, but there is not turn of the foot at this time. The feet won't really begin to turn until the second step is placed.

"Doesnt the lady start her turn on the ball of RF foot before step 2 ?"

Officially no, the turn is made between steps, not into step 1. However, backwards CBM steps are usually placed with some degree of turn (toe in), which is different from the execution of forwards CBM steps.

"Incidentally where should the ladys RF be at the end of 1. Level with the LF (equivalent to the man) or half way towards it (given she is coming to a closed position on 2)."

Probably about halfway closed.

The timing of the rotation relative to the closing in a heel turn action is a subject of some ongoing debate depending on who you talk to. I'm personally of the opinion that many people do not dance it with quite the action they claim to be using, and that what they use when actually dancing is different than what they do when demonstrating it slowly and purposefully. On skilled dancers, the habitual action used in dancing tends to be cleaner and more natural than the slowed down demonstration one - in effect, the body has more insight into how to execute it than the mind does.

If for example you meet someone who claims that the foot does not complete its closing until the end of the turn, and see them demonstrate that, you are likely to see their closing foot execute a little ronde action, as this is what would be required to actually accomplish closing to a standing foot that is rotating that far during the closure. But you don't tend to see such a disruptive decoration in actual dancing.

Anymouse. You say no turn into 1 - only between steps. But doesn't that allow for turn over the last half of 1 ie on the mans left foot whilst RF is swinging towards the passing position. I agree that the time it takes to get the weight through to the front of the foot for a heel release will limit the amount of turn during this period, but surely there must be some ?

Ive just realised that the CBM thing is something I've done without realising it, including the difference between fwd and bckwd. Do you have an explanation for the difference ?

The heel turn for the lady - what of the definition (from Guy Howard that a heel turn is commenced on the ball of foot) .

"Anymouse. You say no turn into 1 - only between steps. But doesn't that allow for turn over the last half of 1 ie on the mans left foot whilst RF is swinging towards the passing position."

There is no turn of the feet at that time. Since turn is measured in the feet, this means that there is no turn at that time. The feet will not turn until after the end of step one - really, there is not much turn until step 2 has been placed, at which time both feet then turn together.

"Ive just realised that the CBM thing is something I've done without realising it, including the difference between fwd and bckwd. Do you have an explanation for the difference ?"

In passing figures at least, toeing in has to do with letting the knee work more into the direction of the swing. Going forwards the knee is already pointed in the direction of the swing, and you want to run the whole length of the foot, so there is no turn of the foot. Or at least none beyond perhaps aligning the outside edge of the heel and the inside edge of the toe with the direction of movement.

"The heel turn for the lady - what of the definition (from Guy Howard that a heel turn is commenced on the ball of foot) ."

Commenced from, okay. But most of it occurs while the weight is moving back the heel.

Anymouse.

With regards the idea of no turn on 1. How do you square that with Guy Howard which states "start to turn on 1" then "turn 1/4 between 1 and 2" this being defined as turn in the feet. Although there is a finite time required for the weight to move through the foot and to attain heel release surely there is some scope for turn on the left foot on the last part of step 1 ie after rise but before the feet pass.

The other thing is I am slightly confused by the definition of "between". Does "between" include the time after placement of step 1 up to the point of passing the feet. Or is it restricted to the phase between passing of the feet just before weight is taken onto step 2 ?

The other question I have is why are the amounts of turn different for the lady ?

I like the explanation of the toe turned in thing. I've never thought that one through before.

Surely this is a case of divided turn for Man: 1/4 between 1 & 2 and 1/8 on 3, while all 3/8s of the Lady's turn comes on the heel turn of 2, she being on the inside of the turn?

the second half of the turn turns that around, and Lady has a divided turn, while the man turns 3/8 on 5, with his ending alignment "pointing", the body finishing its turn on 6.

thanks. i was wondering if it really was that same principle - apart from in this case, the technique suggests that the completion of turn applies to both feet and body.

Surely, where you place a foot "pointing", it isn't going to move again, and the body having previously "turned less" has to catch up.

This doesn't apply to the first half of the NT, but the movement of a heel turn is significantly different. Lady will make the whole turn, to step out forward - any continuing turn would be ugly.

my point was that the heel turn in the ft reverse turn is different from the corresponding steps on say 2 and 3 of a rev turn in waltz in the sense that there is no body turns less on 2 or body completes turn on three.

i am not sure why continuing the rotation as step 3 is taken would be considered ugly particularly.