Over in dance music section, ylchen commented:

"(Natural spin turn 456 ( waltz), my Chinese coach lead me toward DW ( I called it overturn or not start from backing DC , right turn 1/8 , backing LOD , to lead me forward to LOD on 4 . I carefully asked him, if it quite difficult to lead me along LOD so we can move longer distance than back to DW. He said, competitors did it , don't depend on what the book said.) I had to shut up my mouth in such condition despite I thought we should move along LOD if he gave me the way I wanted on 4 , giving him big room to lead and complete the spin and last step on 5,6 .I believed that I will meet someone dancing in this way."

The basic idea of step 4 of a spin turn, or really almost anything following a normally aligned 123 of any 3/8 turn to the right, is to move directly down the LOD, probably while using CBM body rotation to begin another turn. And the key idea to remember is that CBM is a rotation of the body, but NOT YET a change in direction.

Many forget that there's supposed to be a change in direction of progression during step 2-3 of 3/8 turning figures. In the foxtrot, it's obvious, given the foot passing, that steps 1 and 2 move to DW, but step three is now moving down the LOD. In a waltz turn with foot closure we must actually accomplish the same change, only because step 3 is merely a closing we won't really "see" that a new direction of down the LOD has been established during it. But as you lower in the latter part of three, the new direction should become apparent.

Returning to step 4, the idea here is that the forwards partner - the lady - is going to go directly down the LOD on step four, and actually step 5 as well. But the catch is that she has to get past her partner by the early part of step 5. Many leaders (and equally followers when in that situation) detour too far to the side thinking this will make it easier. It really doesn't. Chris & Hazel were a good example - she would go directly down the LOD, but he would get stuck off to the side, and their frame would open up a bit there, often they would loose contact. Instead, what the leader needs to do is gently curve the track of his foot, so that it lands only about a foot WIDTH towards the wall. In addition, he will probably want to toe in the foot placement some. But unless his partner is really, really overweight, he doesn't actually have to go very far to the side at all in order to make it possible for her to go past on the next step. Conceptually, the sideways displacement should be a lot smaller than many imagine.

So that gets us back to the establishment of a new direction on step 3. Many don't have the stability there to do it... instead, they end up continuing to move to the wall. Often associated is not really lowering on three. On some of the teenage competitors you'll actually see that the heel never touches down on step three, and they only lower into step 4. A lot of the adults are only better in that they get their heel down, but they still haven't lowered or moved in the proper direction.

In summary, what is required is that an intent to move down the LOD (instead of continuing to the wall) be "declared" during step three, BEFORE the lowering. The lowering must occur in the down LOD direction, not the DW direction. Then, the inside partner must minimize their detour to the inside, until it is no more than required for their partners actual girth. Finally, the turn will be assisted if they toe in a little bit - that is really all that is required, not actually taking a step to DW.

But given that you can see world finalists who still have a way to go on mastering this, try not to be too hard on local teachers!

I think all Yichin wants to know is . Is step four dignal to the wall or down the LOD. I would say look at any video and see for yourself. I doubt if you will see any going down the LOD anymore. This is a Natural Spin Turn in the Waltz International style. If you have a chart simply turn it clockwise so you are looking at it corner to corner.

"I think all Yichin wants to know is . Is step four dignal to the wall or down the LOD."

It's most definitially supposed to be down LOD, and the top ladies are all going that way.

The catch is that many of the men, even at suprisingly high levels, are unable to fully support this. Due to bad aim, they don't manage to create a new movement down the LOD and instead drift off to the wall. Due to conceptual misunderstanding they tend to curve even further off to the side.

The proof is in their inability to stay with the lady as they make this mistake.

You might also want to review the "Turning too soon" thread in which an alias "Looking learning" that sounds suspiciously like you, posted this:

"I am told that a common mistake among the not so good is. Not going to the end of the step. Which results in a shorter step than it should be. Also turning into a step and again not turning at the end of. Has anybody else been told about this mistake."

That's exactly the problem we see on the spin turn's step 4 - people are turning their track of progression INTO the step, rather than beyond it. CBM, as you well know by now, is a rotation of the BODY, but not yet a turn in the direction of progression, rather it merely sets us up for a potential future turn.

Oh, I love what you said here absolutely. Especially top lady are going that way although I am a beginner. I believed the right alignment and timing will help man to " catch" easily and finally to have a good natural spin and right way ( Two teachers asked me to dance in this way and I could do it in right timing and right direction now . ) The text book is a good basic for dancing and a possible way to solve problems , but not all, We have to develop something better also. So , my opinion is that we based on it but not limited by it . Keep open mind to any suggestion or keep trying.
Chen

Ballroomdancers.com always gives me a home feeling . Here, I have been learning from you all . I will keep in my mind : not too hard on local teachers . Yes! There are a lot of stories behind them.
If man lower on latter 1/2 beat of 3 backing DC, backing LOD when lady steps her right foot and let her body on the top of right foot , get stuck off when her left toes swing toward LOD , Man right arm should lead her toward LOD also rather than draw her toward DW, Yes, as you said I noted a transient gap at this moment ( another lower level coach did natural spin turn and turning lock to right so excellent , he even asked me passing him as far as possible on 4 and 1&2 3 . I kept not down on 4 until his right foot arrived and turn me continuously , I did not lower my heel on 6 and keep foward on BT until 3& .
I had ever tried the man role with another lady to see how difficult to avoid from running toward DW or bumping together, I failed . I will observe and try it later.
Thank you very much for everything.
Chen

"If man lower on latter 1/2 beat of 3 backing DC, backing LOD when lady steps her right foot"

What you are describing would be more the technique of viennese waltz. In slow waltz we do not turn into step one, even to accomplish the LOD alignment. So the lowering is with an LOD direction, not a DC one that becomes LOD.

I think you might be being confused a little bit by the customary under turn of the body at the end of most figures, which is made up only as the next figure starts. But the body alignment is not the official alignment, rather the foot alignment is. (Acutally some advanced dancers will under turn the feet as well), still what is really key is that the direction of the lowering be down LOD from it's start - not continuing to DW, and not DC that only later becomes LOD.

The thing that needs to be looked at is If the man has turned to backing diagnal the wall on step four.. Then he takes that step straight back and not across the body which would make it CBMP. Big mistake. You will find the amounts of turn are the same. Simply turn your chart to backing diagnal to the wall. Everything remains about the same. Think of it this way. With the man backing dignal to the wall. If the lady tries to go down the LOD that is equivilent to her stepping diagnal to the centre. If the man stayed with backing LOD.
The steps after the Spin Turn also needs to be looked at. 456 Reverse Turn. Don't put that first step into a CBMP Position. The step is straight. So I am told and do. Turn at the end of the step.

"The thing that needs to be looked at is If the man has turned to backing diagnal the wall on step four.. Then he takes that step straight back and not across the body which would make it CBMP."

Steping across the body is not CBMP, only stepping across the foot is CBMP.

Further, you cannot CBM into CBMP on the same step - it's impossible by definition. CBMP can only occur as a result of direction of movement, not as a result of turn during the step where it is achieved. Even in the pivot case, you don't place the _moving_ foot into CBMP.

But what you are really missing is one of the fundamental rules, and embarrsingly for you, one you like to remind people about: CBM does not change the direction of the step, it merely changes the orienation of the body. The step is still down the LOD, CBM merely means that the body is turning as it moves down LOD.

"You will find the amounts of turn are the same. Simply turn your chart to backing diagnal to the wall."

Only true if you commence the natural & spin turn facing to wall instead of facing to center! Otherwise, to go to DW you have introduced different amounts of turn, and not simply rotated the chart.

"The steps after the Spin Turn also needs to be looked at. 456 Reverse Turn. Don't put that first step into a CBMP Position. The step is straight."

Yes, but again you show your fundamnetal misunderstanding of the definition of CBMP. You cannot CBM into CBMP, you can only get there by moving diagonally.

"So I am told and do. Turn at the end of the step."

See - that's the thing you've forgotten to apply to step 4 of the spin turn. Turn at the end of the step, AFTER TAKING THE STEP ITSELF DOWN THE LOD. Don't turn first and take the step to DW.

Trying in vain to rewrite the Technique book again are you.. Once more to quote.
CBMP is a term used when the body is not turned but the leg is placed across the front or the back of the body.
It has nothing to do with the feet. If I were to stand still in CBMP you wouldn't know whether is was CBMP or CBM at that point. If you saw me arrive by having my shoulder in position and then my foot was placed you would know that is CBMP.
Just clarify that last sentance for me. Surely you don't think that there is a turn to back diagnal to the wall after step four is taken. That would mean step four being taken down the LOD. You know as well as I do that that step is on the diagnal if we are using the wall for our alignments. I wonder if this is going to go over your head
I did say using the wall for alignments. I will explain. If I were to do a Natural Spin Turn facing diagnal to the centre about half way down the floor. It would be the same if the wall on the short side was brought to my side.

"Trying in vain to rewrite the Technique book again are you.. Once more to quote.
CBMP is a term used when the body is not turned but the leg is placed across the front or the back of the body."

That's the "loose" definition. But it's obviously flawed, because it leads people like you to declare that CBMP is occuring any time the leg is placed normally, but the body happens to be underturned.

As a result, the OFFICIAL (for teaching exams, etc) definition is "A foot position where the foot is placed on or across the line of the supporting foot, either in front or behind, to maintain body line"

"It has nothing to do with the feet."

Shows how little you know...

"If I were to stand still in CBMP you wouldn't know whether is was CBMP or CBM at that point."

True.

"If you saw me arrive by having my shoulder in position and then my foot was placed you would know that is CBMP."

No. If I saw you CBM into the position, I'd know it was not CBMP. If I saw you take a diagonal step into it, I'd know it was CBMP.

"Surely you don't think that there is a turn to back diagnal to the wall after step four is taken. That would mean step four being taken down the LOD. You know as well as I do that that step is on the diagnal"

No, consult your book. We are starting in normal alignment, so the step is directly down the LOD. The turn happens only after the step is placed. The CBM will of course beging before the step is placed, but CBM IS NOT TURN, it is merely a rotation of the body which could preface a turn.

"I did say using the wall for alignments."

Only in your wild imagination... Everyone else is talking about a spin turn following a natural turn: step 1 moved to DW and step 4 moved down LOD, just as in the book.

"I will explain. If I were to do a Natural Spin Turn facing diagnal to the centre about half way down the floor. It would be the same if the wall on the short side was brought to my side."

Yes, but that's not what we are talking about. We are talking about guys who take step 4 to DW, when they started step 1 in the DW alignment, meaning step 4 has to go down LOD.