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re: How do you define a Professional or Amateur?
Posted by Jonathan Atkinson
10/15/2002  2:57:00 PM
First, $5000 is way too low a limit - it's a drop in the bucket compared to the current "must not exceed dance-related expenses" limit.


$5000 was an arbitrary number for the purpose of illustrating a point, but since you mention it, I don't agree with "must not exceed dance-related expenses rule", either. (Besides, many competitive pros even have expenses greater than their dance-related income).

The second is your assumption that top amateurs want to turn pro, and that pros are necessarily better than amateurs. There are in fact a lot of people out there who are very good, could be of service doing some teaching, etc - but who have no desire to give up their non-dancing careers.


Nobody says they have to give up their non-dancing carrers. There is nothing in my definition (nor anybody else's that has voiced an opinion here) stipulating that a professional must only receive income from dancing, and not from anything else. I'm merely suggesting that if a person wishes to spend a considerable amount of time and make a considerable amount of money from his dancing, he take the designation of professional. I could care less what he does with his non-dancing time.

And, as it happens, there are many pros who must supplement their teaching income with other types of work. Some make more money from their non-dancing work than they do from their dancing. It seems a bit odd to me that such people can't call themselves amateurs (actually, they are technically allowed to if they want to jump through some embarrassing hoops -- see below).

I do not make the assumption that ALL top amateurs want to turn pro. The only assumption I make, which is a perfectly fair one, is that there are some amateurs out there who want to make money with their dancing, which I interpret as wanting to turn pro. The solution I offered only applies to these people -- not to all amateurs across the board. But to those who do want to make money with their dancing, it's perfectly fair to assume that they want to turn pro... they do want to turn pro! They just don't want to be labeled as such. They want all of the perks, but not the title. If such people have their way, literally the only thing separating them from the pros will be the word we use to describe them. How does the expression go? "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."

I've heard the argument many times before that pro and amateur are not levels of dancing, and that there is nothing in the definition of amateur that suggests such. And while it's wonderful in theory, the reality is that professional is a level above amateur. And so it should be... professionals spend a majority of their time, energy, and resources perfecting their skill, while amateurs are those who have dancing as a hobby, secondary to their regular trade or line of work.

Furthermore, when an amateur couple has reached the absolute top of the competitive circuit and has nowhere left to go, what do they do? More often than not, they turn pro. And by most, this is considered a step up to the next level. When was the last time you heard of a professional couple reaching the top, and then "graduating" to the amateur circuit? Actually, when a pro wants to revert to amateur status, it is considered by most a step down (hence the word "revert"), and is frowned upon by a large portion of the community. So much so, in fact, that one must actually petition the governing bodies to obtain permission to do so.

Still don't agree? Then answer this: Why is there such a reluctance on the part of these money-making amateurs to adopt the professional label? If the only thing separating a pro from a money-making amateur is the label itself, why put up such a fight to maintain the label of amateur? I'll give you a hint: The only people who show such reluctance are those who are actively competing. That's right -- when you call yourself a pro, you have to compete against other pros. And to many amateurs at such a level, that means giving up your status as the big fish in the little pond. They know quite well that a finalist amateur might become no more than a semi- or quarter-finalist as a pro... maybe less.

So in spite of any dictionary definition you may read, to say that amateur and professional are not considered levels of dancing to some degree is an idealistic fantasy. And to stick to such a rigid interpretation of the word "amateur" does indeed beg the question: Why make a professional / amateur distinction at all?

Regards,
Jonathan
re: How do you define a Professional or Amateur?
Posted by ladraquona
10/9/2002  4:44:00 AM
This hardly has anything to do with the topic we're discussing here, but you can compare it to the dentist/dental assistent roles:

The dental assistent is someone who is able to do all the routine things the dentist (normally) preforms at appointments. An assistent does NOT have to have a degree to be an assistent, you can simply join after highschool and apply at a(ny) practice. (At least, here in Holland...)

Does the assistent get payed? Sure, but not the same sallery as the dentist receives. Does she know the things the dentist knows? Sure, but to a certain degree.
Is she certified to do the things she does? When she gets fired, will she be able to start her own practice? No, because she's not a dentist.

Defining the professional status with "someone who gets payed for what he/she does" still doesn't make the dental assistent a dentist, nor does it make an amateur a professional. Of course, a dentist gets payed a lot more than the assistent. Maybe the difference in $$ per hour between amateurs and professionals is hard to tell, but you can't possibly call an amateur a professional if he/she never had the education to be one. No matter what he/she gets payed.

Another $0.02

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." - Horace
years on dance and teaching!
Posted by joelwood
10/21/2002  4:11:00 PM
posted earlier by guest
--------------------------
Contrast someone's whose spent years as a client
of excellent teachers, gradually building their understanding and informally offering advice to friends. If that
person gets to the point where they decide to formally take a few students, at least they've had time to gain
competence without
passing their learning period off as professional teaching.
-------------------------
Yes and then they need to start the years of trainging it takes to be a fully qualified instructor too!. That is why I want a certified teacher especially for those who have competition aspirations. I do not suggest using a teacher in training for this purpose! j.. ñ

jo
re: How do you define a Professional or Amateur?
Posted by Keh Gough
10/16/2002  8:57:00 AM
And there are, for every one professional amateur, 100+ amateur professionals. ;-p

An Amateur is?
Posted by joelwood
10/15/2002  6:28:00 PM
One who does all this for love of sport.
note to all my last post was sent whem tired and did not come out well at all and is now on view for all to see for the lifetime of this board!
What i hope to include in the defintion of professional is the years and training not just in dance but in communication and personal development guidance skills needed to assess each student differing needs and desires. Most "amateurs" who teach may not have taken a teaching course. Often "pros" take money for teaching without training which is why only certified tachers should be sought for good and appropriate instruction. (ie. AM certified, FADS or CDTA, ISTD or DIVDA are all good systems)
but I digress.
In Canada currently we have a shortage of competing professionals as they upper level competitor is now seeking the top amateur as coach and the hi level amateur dancer has no need to adopt the title of pro so he can still compete with who?
As far as level of dance often the amateur with their self focus will be a great dancer. Pros will have all that understanding and have cultivated the tools to share their love and knowledge.
I salute all dancers I wish to share the floor. But I would not want to share the teacing with semi-skilled communivcators. This is a generalization this does not apply to all. I have seen some very well intentioned people do some harmfull teaching when trying to help. I want to have everyone dance at all times. And I want the trained teachrer teaching at all levels. Even Pavarotti has his trained coach at EVERY practice session!
;-p s

jo–
re: How do you define a Professional or Amateur?
Posted by operabob
10/14/2002  7:36:00 PM
This very interesting discussion begs a question:

As a professionally trained amateur singer I'm well aware of the difference between a professional "teacher" and a "finisher". How would you define the difference in dance teachers?

OB
Missing the point
Posted by missing the point
10/12/2002  10:50:00 AM
Originally posted by Jonathan W Atkinson:
For example, if the limit were $5,000 per year per person.

As a couple gets better and better, they feel more and more compelled to turn pro.


I see a couple flaws and misconceptions here.

First, $5000 is way too low a limit - it's a drop in the bucket compared to the current "must not exceed dance-related expenses" limit.

The second is your assumption that top amateurs want to turn pro, and that pros are necessarily better than amateurs. There are in fact a lot of people out there who are very good, could be of service doing some teaching, etc - but who have no desire to give up their non-dancing careers.
In short, dance is their AVOCATION and not something they wish to consider as a carreer.

So why should they be forced or encouraged to turn pro if that is not one of their life goals?

Personally, I would be happy to eliminate the pro/am distinction at all levels - simply extending the current points system (possibly adding a few more levels) would be enough to make
up for the lost opportunities. (Of course if someone wants to hold a 'pure amateur championships' that is their businesses) But it might do some good if some of the rank and file pros had to go up against good amateurs now and then... As long as they get bumped up levels
appropriately, they should not be limiting anyone's opportunity.

Pro and am are lifestyle choices, not levels...
re: How do you define a Professional or Amateur?
Posted by curl
10/9/2002  1:58:00 AM
there are a lot of "amateurs" in europe that have no regular non-dancing job. you find all of them in front of the ranking lists. since a lot of money is in this buisness now,too, the european amateur associatons will never change this liberal rules, because they all earn a lot of money from tv broadcaster and sponsors.
re: How do you define a Professional or Amateur?
Posted by ladraquona
10/7/2002  11:16:00 PM
Here (in Holland), a professional is someone who had his/her education at an officially recognized dance institute. You are no longer allowed to participate in amateur competitions as soon as you enter, so it doesn't matter whether you are "about to be a pro" or a "graduated pro", you can't dance as an amateur anymore

When an amateur receives money for his/her performance, it's more or less a compensation for travelling etc., not necessarily something that he/she receives as a payroll.

My 2 cents

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." - Horace
my what clear thoughts
Posted by joelwood
10/10/2002  5:14:00 PM
Great to hear from you all. The reason for a definition is to know when you are a pro or replacing the professional or interfering with the amateur's development.
Why should you be a professional if you could receive money for teaching and shows and compete against people who do this as a hobby or love of art?
Shall we all fight for the dollar to cover our living costs of travel and costume food and shoes?
How would a professional teacher distinguish his or herself if they can be replaced by someone who is making their living someway else and teaching on the side as an amateur dancer? õ

jo
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