Why would you say something that anybody can see for themselves. If anybody wishes to see the alignment that is now being used by all advanced dancers. Just simply go to Learn the Dances click on Spin Turn in the Waltz and come back and tell us which alignment it is on. Is it straight down the floor or is it diagnal to the wall. If you need to go frame by frame just use your space bar. The second group shows where the step goes the clearest. If you haven't got Quicktime which you need to see these video clips its free. Just follow the instructions.

"Why would you say something that anybody can see for themselves. If anybody wishes to see the alignment that is now being used by all advanced dancers. Just simply go to Learn the Dances click on Spin Turn in the Waltz and come back and tell us which alignment it is on."

There's a whole bunch of problems with that idea:

1) Jonathan has long been known for, and freely admits to, curving the track of CBM steps. This is contrary to what both you and I believe is proper, and indeed contrary to most all of the competitor's I've been exposed it... it's a sort of American overinterpetation from something that's really quite a different quality in its English ancestor. The key point: while you and I believe that the turn happens after the step, Jonathan believe the step itself curves - and not just on step 4, he does it on step 1 as well. Needless to say, if both partners curve, you don't get the seperation that happens if the backwards partner cuts out to the side while the forwards partner goes straight. I'd prefer to stay together by both moving down the LOD on step 4, with body rotation but no change of track until the end of step 5.

2) As a teaching example, this video is substantially "rigidized" It does not flow in the manner of competition dancing, because the dancers are "trying too hard" to demonstrate what they think is proper for the basic case. A competition performance by the same dancers would be much more fluid.

3) It's still much more down LOD than a lot of the mistaken interpretations we see, and probably a lot better than what ylchen's teacher was doing. Another thing to note is that this does have a full lowering action - the direction of step 4 is entierly purposeful and comes from the drive, it's not the kind of uncontrolled drift to DW after a bad lowering that afflicts even suprisingly good dancers at times.

Now, if you go looking for real competitions videos, you will indeed see a lot of mistakes. But if you hunt up the teachers of the people you saw in those world competitions, get PRIVATE LESSONS with them, and ask about this specific subject, you might learn something about the difference between what the best are being taught to do, and what they actually manage to accomplish.

I think I put Jonathan on the spot there. I will just point out that the alignments used by Hilton . I've got so many of him in various groups doing a Spin Turn also John Woods. They are all on the same alignment.
As I have poorly tried to explain without the walls we have no alignments. What we have is amounts of turn. If we try to do a quarter to something that should be a half then it loses some. if not all of its quality. The judge wont look twice. I'm sure the above mentioned gentlmen are dancing amounts of turn and on that particular step are not worried about a text book alignment. We have a City Hall that is a beautiful venue but the floor is a half circle. The walls the whole works are circular. This is where if the move is a half a turn or whatever the amounts of turn remain constant.

"If we try to do a quarter to something that should be a half then it loses some. if not all of its quality."

And that is exactly what is happening. There are supposed to be 3/8 turn between the direction of step 1 and step 4. Instead, what we often see on even very good couples, is 1/2 turn on the man, and 3/8 on the lady. That's two problems - a wrong amount of turn PLUS a failure to match the partner's needs.

"I'm sure the above mentioned gentlmen are dancing amounts of turn and on that particular step are not worried about a text book alignment."

But they are ACCOMPLISHING neither. You see the guy going off to DW and imagine he must have started the natural moving to wall, but that isn't what happened - he started DW, and did the WRONG AMOUNT OF TURN.

When the amounts of turn are wrong, there's no rotation of perspective in the room that will make them right, becuse they are wrong relative to themselves.

You need to look at that again or reword it.. There is 3/8ths of a turn over the three steps. Not step four. Step four does not come into this at this point The next 1/2 turn includes step four. I think you will find the amounts of turn correct.
We are taught very much like the book on that first step with a 1/4 turn over the RF. After completing the rest of the turn and if you happen to dance with one of these top ladies you will detect a very suttle movement of the feet after they are drawn together getting both feet in the direction they will be going.

"You need to look at that again or reword it.. There is 3/8ths of a turn over the three steps. Not step four."

The turn occuring on step four is not included, becuse it does not influence the direction of step four - it can only influence what comes after step four.

As a result, there is, IN FACT, 3/8 turn between the direction of step one, and the direction of step four. Outline your footrpints and get a protractor.

"Step four does not come into this at this point"

What happens during step four doesn't come into it yet, but the position where step four lands is a reflection of the amount of turn - 3/8 - that is to be accomplished during the first three steps.

"The next 1/2 turn includes step four. I think you will find the amounts of turn correct."

If step one goes to DW, and step four also goes to DW, then the amount of turn are INCORRECT - and that is precisly the problem that I - and ylchen - are talking about. Look at your book again, and you will see that step four goes down LOD, it does not go off to the wall.

Or dig out Moore and his foot charts - pretty much a straight movement down LOD between the footprints of step 3 and step 4. The man's ball of foot deflects a tiny distance towareds the wall from where it started - but if you look with real care, you'll see that the lady has actually moved her foot very slightly to CENTER! Small details, but nothing like the drastic departure to DW that we often see mistakenly made.

"After completing the rest of the turn and if you happen to dance with one of these top ladies you will detect a very suttle movement of the feet after they are drawn together getting both feet in the direction they will be going."

Indeed - but the direction they will be going after a 3/8 turn natural commenced DW is down LOD. If the man goes off to DW on the next step, he's not going to be with his partner. And that's the mistake that this thread is addressing.

But you can't see that... you can't see that the amount of turn is actually wrong, and instead imagine that the figure was simply started from a different alignment. It wasn't - the actual amount of turn within the figure was wrong.

Get the charts out. The book will have to be turned on its side. After turning the book 1/4 of turn clockwise. Where is step four now. Its diagnal to the wall. The amounts of turns haven't altered have they. I knew it would beyond grasping. By the way what makes you think todays ladies take step four LOD If they keep the right side of their chest with the right side of their partners chest they will go in the same direction. See clips on this site. Even if they have that old cave man hip contact they would still go in the same direction.
In parting. For any given software, the momment you manage to master it a new version of that software appears on the market. Isn't that right.

"Get the charts out. The book will have to be turned on its side. After turning the book 1/4 of turn clockwise."

Why do you keep assuming that the grouping started with a movement to wall, WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN REPEATEDLY INFORMED THAT IT STARTED WITH A MOVEMENT TO DW?

Why don't you just admit that you don't pay any attention to what you are replying to?

The commencing alignment was as documented in the book, thus step four should be as documented in the book. No rotating the map - if step four goes in a different direction after the same beginning, the THE AMOUNT OF TURN HAS BEEN CHANGED.

Hello, pictured the 2-3 mainn points prio to dance with other lady in easy hold , I was able to lead her or follow her right turn 1/8 and lower heel before 4, back LOD then right side gave way via my left foot toe in ,pivot turn right 1/2,continued with right foot ,HT drove up and turned back DC on 6 ,TH...followed by turning lock to right. We trie several time for its stability.
Thanks for your clear instruction and good advice : not too hard on others.( sorry , I extent it .)
Yes, be hard to myself is more useful and less chance to be an target attcked.
chen

Yes, no ( foot) swivel on 1, but body turn present. right ?