"Back a few postings. When you wrote that Egglton was opposed to CBM on a Reverse Turn. Are you sure he was talking about the Foxtrot and not the Waltz. I doubt that he would not use CBM on a Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot. This is the mistake that is continuously made here. One rule does not apply to all dances. Please put the dance that is being refered to, everybody. Didn't we learn at school When. Where. How."

At least based on the teaching of several of Eggleton's students who were world champions in their own right, it applies to reverse turns in all of the dances. It's a consquence of the asymetry of the hold, not of the dance being done.

But you are probably going to need an in-person lesson (or several) with a world class teacher before you will really understand the idea. Ask around and you'll find many who have studied with these teachers who've heard the idea from them, but few who will claim to understand it.

I personally prefer (and have more often heard) the explanation of initially turning the lower body while keeping a strong left shoulder lead in the upper, and only letting the upper body rotate later. Maybe tangotime can add some detail on the no cbm at all version.

I think what is coming into play here , is upper body speed and lower body speed,( as indicated in Synon. posting ).
Am trying to re call if the dance mentioned , was only waltz . ( which would seem more logical to some, maybe not , to others ) havent spoken to Peter in quite a while ,but next opportunity, will ask .

I think that when someone of note, makes a declaritive statement, suggesting change, of a long standing concept, it will invariably have opposition .

I have to go back to what len also preached-- his belief that cbm,s greater purpose in life, was to bring the partner back into position from o/side partner. He also frequently stressed a " sympathetic " use of the action, particularly in whisk.
I also know many teachers , who do not overtly stress it, saying that it should be a more natural effect .
It always brings me back to Lens thoughts on "Technique" .

Would like to add this thought--

I know there are many of you reading these posts are students. We should make it clear, that some of the responses , are very academic in nature . They are not meant, I am sure ,to confuse you .

Also, one should realise, that the many nuances of dance, cannot be learned from the written word , or a video.

It applies to all Reverse Turns in all dances. So you said.
Now lets look at the Tango. A Open Reverse Turn. If you dont use CBMP on one and three then your Tango will have yours and your partners hips fully exposed. Not a pretty site is it.
I will call them the Blackpool Tapes. Name me one dancer who does not apply CBM on a Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot. There are plenty to check out.
Name one.

Tango-- bad e.g. -- we should be well aware that the discussion was about " swing" dances . And by the way-- dont shoot the messenger !! . I also stated , upon reflection that it probably only applied to Waltz ( maybe you dont read so good !! )
Or are you debating just for debatings sake ?

And lastly, you never asked me what MY opinion was . But I have a feeling, only yours counts

Terence2. I missed the bit where you stated, upon reflection that it probably only applied to the Waltz. Which is exactly what I wrote. I doubt if Peter ever intended that CBM was not to be applied in the Foxtrot Quickstep Reverse Turns. We must also remember he always was tall and lean built. If he had been shorter and more heavily built his ideas might have been different. Let us also take into consideration that it was first written in 1928 by Victor Silvester and is still in the books today. As you said ..dont shoot the messenger.
So. What is your opinion. While we are at it. What about an Open Telemark in the Waltz. Would CBM be applied there. Add to that a Fallaway. There is a beautifull example of CBM if you can watch Jonathan Crossley in this one.

I thought we were in agreement , -- my feeling about many things in dance-- less is more .
Open tele. --it depends largely , on to whom I am teaching -- pretty much book if beginner, medals etc.--- but for comp work , I like the " roll " effect ., and of course q, open , on occasion .
Possibly ( other than locks ) one of the most versatile figures in dance .

Where you aware that it comes from a skiing action ?( modified, of course )

"It applies to all Reverse Turns in all dances. So you said.
Now lets look at the Tango. A Open Reverse Turn. If you dont use CBMP on one and three then your Tango will have yours and your partners hips fully exposed. Not a pretty site is it."

Actually, with the hips rotating BEFORE the body, they stay within the hold, instead of being exposed.

As the concept has been presented to me, it applies to ALL dances of the ballroom half of the family. One noted teacher for example, no matter what dance you ask the question in, will momentarily switch you to viennese waltz in order to explain and demonstrate this concept, as the feeling is that it's clearer there. Then you get to take it back and use it in your foxtrot reverse turn.

terence2 wrote:
"I think that when someone of note, makes a declaritive statement, suggesting change, of a long standing concept, it will invariably have opposition ."

Yes, it may sound grossly unorthodox, but I don't think the no-reverse-cbm is actually not a rejection of tradition but instead a less than perfectly stated clarification of an often overlooked point:

reverse turning methods are NOT mirror images of natural turning methods.

If your concept of CBM matches what's done in natural turns, then it WILL NOT APPLY to reverse turns. On the other hand, if your mental concept of CBM has "natural turn order of actions" and a different "reverse turn order of actions" then reverse turns will have CBM - reverse turn CBM, which is to say lower body rotating before upper.

terence2 wrote:
"I think what is coming into play here , is upper body speed and lower body speed"

I believe the question was in the 06 Foxtrot Final on the Wave by Timothy and Christopher. If we drew a line all the way from the rear foot through the head to the ceiling on a clock face where would it finish. It most cerainly is not 12 o' clock. That is and was the question. I don't care what your Aunt Sahara teaches. I want to know what is on the video.
Because some teach there is no CBM on a Reverse Turn. That doesn't mean there is no Swing and Sway. Do that right and the rest will follow.
Before you do that have a look at your feet. As you step to the side on step two are you on both toes as you step.. When step two is complete can you stand on that toe and lift your left foot from the floor. Which allows step three to be a step and not a prop. It should be a step backing the LOD

"Because some teach there is no CBM on a Reverse Turn. That doesn't mean there is no Swing and Sway."

Nobody denied the existence of swing and sway. Instead, the subject is the maintenance of a left side lead in reverse turns. And that is where the no cbm, or cbm in lower body and only much later the upper, comes in.

"Not counting the beats... Are they crazy?"
When i tap my feet to music, i'm not counting beats. Unless i use an unusual definition of the word "count"
I'm following the beats, yes. I can detect the first beat in the bar without having to count to 3 (or 4), yes. I'm sure most people can, otherwise they'd have to guess the first beat 1 and count from there. For serious technical work on figures, i will count, especially if there's no music .
However, i have no problem if people want to count away while they're dancing. But i suspect they don't really need to