From what I understand: your wife *only* feels the finger pressure when she doesn't know exactly what to do next, and you give her a(n) strong/unforgiving lead?

This may sound like a strange question, but I was wondering if it feels as uncomfortable to you as to her, or that you don't notice any difference? (If you don't feel any difference in leading, then it's hard to change *your* "pattern". Keh gives good advice by moving the whole pressure-thing to the palm of your hand )

Michelle

Hi, Rice:

Your description of your right hand positions in Tango is what I do. When I dance promenade in Tango, my right hand is then moved laterally to between her spine and rib cage at a level of half way between shoulder and waist, Fingers point diagonally downwards, and the base of my right palm in contact behind lady's back.

Keh

It is one thing to 'solidify' a frame when a follower, particularly a beginner, wobbles. I've been grateful for the support more than once, especially when I've slipped. (It was worse till I learned the trick of gluing suede on my heels!) However, if your frame is always rigid, and particularly if it's in the wrong position, two things are likely to happen. First, the follower can be knocked off balance, making her heavy while inhibiting her ability to complete her steps. Second, the leader's muscular tension makes it harder to feel where the follower is in her own movement. If the a lead is given while a follower is still off balance from the preceding pattern, she will be late and out of position. She may even be on the wrong foot; it's hard to take a step forward when falling backward, for instance!

Also, you say "Mind you, we can execute some of our problem patterns just fine when we practice it more often and she remembers. Right now, I switch to a simpler pattern whenever I notice some problems. This is not easy for because I try to stay with the beat while moving to a simpler pattern from a disrupted complex pattern."

I'm a little puzzled by your use of the word 'pattern' in this context. Did you mean 'combination of patterns'? That would make more sense...and if so explain a lot of the problems. If a follower dances with the same leader doing the same patterns in the same order, she eventually 'remembers' what to do and does it by rote. This is not following, it's anticipating (a cardinal sin in the follower's book of rules). Frequently couples who dance together a lot look good even when no leading/following is going on. But any deviation from expected groupings is problematic. I've also found it extremely difficult to dance with someone who is fuzzy on the concept of leading and who just 'learned' a new combination from a group class. It can work in class when the women know what's happening. On the social floor anything can happen....usually does....but if the lead isn't there that combination won't be happening. Especially with women who weren't in the class!

I'm convinced that leading and following are learned best when both partners can execute the patterns but the follower does NOT know what is coming. Also, learning goes faster when dancing with someone who already knows the complementary skill. It is incredibly difficult for two beginners to learn together because neither can provide what the other needs to fine tune their part. The leader supplies inaccurate or conflicting signals; the follower misreads or misses cues; both are still developing muscle control, coordination, and balance. That's also why I'd suggest partnered beginners take some lessons separately with a pro, at least until the basic concepts of lead and follow are thoroughly understood and both partners are able to give and receive constructive feedback with each other.

I read somewhere that good leading is following and good following is leading....the more I dance the more sense that makes.

It is my belief that Never lead with finger tip to lead. I use the base of my right palm ( thicker part of the palm ) to lead the lady for a left turn. I use the very base of pinkie finger and part of the palm for leading right turn. I always keep my index finger thru pinkie nicely close together.

If you will lead her with signals from your right hand just a little earlier than you normaly would lead, it might help.

Regards,

Keh

1. The lady's forward drive
2. The man pulling his partner when dancing backwards

1. The lady's forward drive:
While the lady must materially assist the forward momentum when dancing forward to a greater extent than when she dances backwards. I don't believe that the lady's forward drive is of the same nature as the man, when he dances forward. When the man dances forward he really and truely "dances" the lady backwards. He can do this because he has a slightly "forward" poise, he is usually much heavier and stronger than the lady and finally because he determines the alignment, direction and the figure to follow. So the lady can "under-dance" to a greater extent and still feel light to the man.

The lady on the other hand cannot "dance" the man in this manner. While dancing backwards the man still retains his "forward" poise. Being heavier, he still has to do a fair amount of dancing ,though slightly less than when he dances forward, if he wants to be light. Also, the man will still have to determine the alignment, direction and the figure to follow.

2. The man pulling his partner when dancing backwards:
While the "feeling" of pulling your partner should tell you that something is wrong, the man may find it necessary to accelerate (or decelerate) his partner while dancing backwards. Your lady will have the feeling that this is all perfectly natural without any sensation of being pulled.

One of the distinguishing characteristics of a top class lead is precisely this ability of being able to accelerate the lady without "pulling". While the fundamentals of correct posture, frame & tone, dancing your entire frame or in other words your centre of weight, never turning your centre away from your partner and shaping, etc. are vital I will assume knowledge of this and touch on the more obsure points.

Maintain your lead and connection from start to the very end of the figure when dancing forward. That way you will ensure the lady completes the preceding figure. The lead can "die" towards the end of a figure. The result is you don't complete the figure together and end up pulling her off before the end of the preceding step. You cannot attempt to accelerate her while the nature of the step demands that she decelerate. This is pulling.

When dancing backwards, convey the intention to move, wait for a reaction in the form of movement. You can accelerate or decelerate the movement through the swing or stride but allow her foot to take ground first before placing yours. Ensure that where you place your foot maintains your connection with her.

So it is possible as a man to influence the momentum of the lady while dancing backwards. It's a question of when, where and how. I find this idea of "Lady drives forward" and "Man should not pull" while true in many ways does not convey the full story.

Regards,
Len.

Thanks for the tips. Ballroom is a never ending technique refinement but I enjoy it since I see the results a lot sooner compared to my old sport tennis.

Sandy -

Thanks for reminding the "fun" part. It's one reason or the lack of it from my partner that pushed me to post this problem on the board.

Thanks for all the response.

"I read somewhere that good leading is following and good following is leading....the more I dance the more sense that makes. "

I can see the Good Leading is Following part to some degree. I try to pick the next figure by feeling the what is currently happening between my partner and I, and according to where I can go on the floor. So you might say I am trying to follow these things to make the best out of our dancing.

I having trouble seeing the other side, Good following is Leading, can you explain a little more. I love hearing other peoples ideas on dancing.

Thanks

Sandy

"While you initiate the step, she is responsible for driving the step and determining its final size. This means that you must wait for her to finish the step. This is a very hard thing to learn. You have to learn to trust that your partner will do her job and finish the step."

Our instructor mentioned this to us in passing but I never paid attention that much to it thinking that it's one of the minor techniques. I've been so used to taking charge that probably it would be difficult to change but I'll try anything to improve our dancing.

"The last thing I will mention is if your partner is not familiar with certain patterns why are you trying to force her to do them? You may be attempting patterns that are beyond her current abilities. "

We started our lessons at the same time 2 years ago and since I will be leading it is necessary for me to memorize the syllabus figures. For some reason she did not memorize it, some days she remembers other days she forgets (in whole or part). It depends on how often I refresh her memory but this happens only in the upper bronze patterns which are more complicated. I really don't know why but we are loaded with lots of figures since we do both smooth and rhythm plus argentine tango, hustle, and samba. May be we've spread ourselves too thin.

Keh -

"Where do you place your right hand behind your partner's back while dancing Tango?"

Midway between the lower tip of shoulder blade (scapula) and waist with a slight downward slant. About half of my hand, mostly fingers crosses the midline/spine. Again, my hand is slightly cupped.

I agree with everything Blair has mentioned. I especially like the idea of putting the women in the middle of the huha-hoop. Looking forward to trying that myself.

My instructor has quoted to me several times, "A man's right arm is his worst enemy." What that means is that although it seems very natural to use the right arm, you end up getting the exact opposite reaction you want. Once you pull on a lady you take her off balance and shrink the space she has to dance in. You never want to get into the habit of pulling the follower around the room, it well just become a habit you have to break in the future.

If this is a regular parnter and she doesn't seem to follow, what I would do is actually stop, get out of the way of traffic on the floor, and walk through it a few times together. Then "suprise" her with it again out on the floor in the middle of a group of figures.

Good luck and always remember "Dancing should be fun"

Sandy