OK then, back to topic 1 .

I am familiar with CBM and right/left side leading, except that I do have a question regarding how to verbally describe which side is leading as the lady moves backwards. I think if I understand Len's description below, the lady's right foot moves backwards and her right side "leads" backwards also? I had just not thought of it that way before (although I am, hopefully!, dancing it that way).

Len,

Realizing that this was more an issue of teaching method rather than dancing method, I had originally decided to let the topic rest. But as I kept kicking it around in my head for a while, I decided that I had a thing or two more to say about it. So here it is:

Your primary issue with my statements seemed to be not of their correctness per se, but that they might be misconstrued. (You may, of course, correct me if I'm mistaken about this). I certainly can't argue with that, but I should point out that any teaching method can be misunderstood by a student. If we were to reject a teaching method simply because it might be misinterpreted, then we would not be able to teach anything at all. Because, of course, almost anything that one person communicates to another has the possibility of being misinterpreted.

Being a teacher with some years behind me, I've probably seen almost every possible way that a student can misinterpret a concept. But that only speaks to real-life interactive situations such as private lessons. What you and I can't know is how effective these concepts might be for someone reading this on the internet. That being said, what we're really left with is nothing more than our own opinions to form an educated guess.

So this is why I continue to defend the particular method I used. It's not because I think it's superior to any that you mentioned... CBM, CBMP, right and left side leads... I use them all myself. I just feel the need to point out that it is no more fallible than any other method, and that I beleive that the criticism you have of it should apply to all methods that we have discussed thusfar.

For example, I beleive that CBM is actually one of the most misunderstood concepts in ballroom dancing. Case in point: The discussion of CBM and CBMP that took place recently in this forum. And the concept of right- and left-side leading can actually produce some of the same errors that the concept of rotation can.

So you see, any method is error-prone. Our only recourse is to explain things to the best of our ability, being thorough enough to at least minimize the possibility of misinterpretation. Beyond that, it would take a private lesson to make sure that the student is understainding you. And that is still, after all, the best possible way to learn how to dance.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Atkinson

Beleive it or not, it really is actually supposed to be rightward (clockwise) rotation, as the left side should project forward, not the right.

But I beleive James was right... since this has branched out into an entirely different topic, we should start a new thread. So for further oversway discussion, please see thread entitled: "Oversway".

Sincerely,
Jonathan

Sorry about the mistaken identity, Len & Len!

Jonathan

Hi, James:

Jonathan's explaination of " Rightward rotation " is referring to in man's perspective where man's right shoulder rotate foreward and left shoulder rotate back in counter-clock-wise direction. Therefore it is a stationary " left turn rotation " mainly the upper body.

Leftward sway then becomes clear, as man's topline sway ( tilt ) to man's left side. I hope this clear things out.

Sorry that I hi-jacked the topic.

Regards,

Keh Gough

Hi Jonathan- That's a different Len. I'm the one that you are asking about. Thank you for the message, and please give my regards to Larinda and Steve. Take Care, Len Diana

Thank you Jonathan and Draganm for your replies;

The oversway in previous post is done as following: from advance twinkle to chasse to launch to oversway.

Regards,
Keh Gough

Nothing disagreed with in your post, but I will defend the concept of rotation in the following way:

When there is to be body rotation without foot rotation (as in the example of the feather step), over-rotation can really only occur when a person rotates his or her feet. So long as the feet are kept in proper alignment and the direction of movement is in the same line as the feet are pointing, the body will not over-rotate.

For example, when I see a lady over-rotate her feather on step 2, it's because she's allowing her right foot to turn out to point against LOD (or even to DC against LOD). This takes what would have otherwise been a back step with a right side lead and turns it into a plain old side step. If, however, the lady would have kept her right foot pointing DW against LOD, the rest of her body would be limited in the amount of rotation it can achieve, and even if it reaches these limits, would not be over-rotated.

Of course, it's still possible to rotate to soon, but this did not strike me as the problem with this particular individual. If she or her partner were rotating their shoulders out of alignment with their hips, I beleive the symptoms would have been different.

Still, it doesn't hurt to mention that the timing of rotation is important: When one rotates too quickly, it will cause the shoulders to fall out of vertical alignment with the hips. To solve this problem, one should always remember to keep both sides of the body progressing in the same direction, even though one side is progressing faster than the other.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Atkinson

PS -- Are you Len Diana, Larinda's student? You might be amused to know that Stephen and Larinda are staying with us right now while they're in L.A. I'd have them say hello, but they're both fast asleep right now.

The simple entrance makes it easier to deal with, so that's good.

Start from the standpoint of taking a basic side step in closed position. Strong compression into right leg to provide support for a good sized side step. Here's the important part: As the side step is being taken, avoid *any* hints of sway, rotation, or body shapes. Move the entire body as one unit, solid as a rock, with hips straight and level.

After weight has been fully established over the left foot, then start to work on the shape. There are two primary elements to this shape: (1) Rightward rotation, and (2) Leftward sway.

The rightward rotation takes place in the torso and hips. There should be no mis-shaping of the arms; this is entirely body rotation. Be careful not to pull back on the right side (this can affect the lady's balance and/or break the dance position). Instead, project the left side forward.

The leftward sway is all hips, baby. The right hip should be higher than the left hip, plain and simple. The man should watch out that he doesn't exaggerate this sway with his top... if anything, he should be stretching his left side long, not dipping it down. Also, even though the lady may be looking to the right, she should still work on keeping the head *weight* over her left side, just as she does in promenade position.

Try to hit on all of these points with the kids, but the most important thing to remember is: Have them dance completely through the side step, with weight fully transferred, before beginning to take to the shape. They may blend it when it comes time to dance with music, but for learning purposes, it really helps to break the movement up clearly.

Good luck.

Sincerely,
Jonathan Atkinson

Hi Jonathan

Sorry to disagree. However I do not imply in my previous reply that it is possible to over-rotate from following your explanation or that the problem of the dancer is over-rotation but rather that the conscious conceptualization of "rotation" while executing the feather is likely to be misunderstood and cause distortions. "Rotation" implies a definite turning action around some fixed point( to me anyway, it's all subjective).

We are saying the same thing in principle. It's how we are saying it. CBM, CBMP and R/L side leads are some of the fundamental concepts used in all the modern, standard dances. It gives these dances a set of common technical principles and a common language. It also enables "precise" descriptions (as is possible in describing dancing).

I believe that the dancer with the problem in question would be most effective at solving her problem by understand the actions of CBM, CBMP and side leading first and then apply them to the feather step.

Regards,
Len

(Jonathan, I am not Len Diana, I do not live in the USA)