How would you propose the man lead the lady to promenade position without any sort of rotation? If he has no rotation in any part of his body, she has no reason to turn herself to promenade.

Book technique describes rotation and alignments of the feet. And in the most basic version of the Whisk, indeed the man has to turn... of his feet. However, he must turn his upper body to the right, not only to lead the lady to promenade position, but also to put his own body in the correct position.

It may be an oversimplification to say that the upper body is turned exactly a full 1/8 off of the feet in promenade, but if you allow me the liberty, this is how I would describe it: In promenade, man's feet point diagonal wall, body faces wall. Lady's feet point diagonal center, body faces center.

So if we start in closed position with man facing and lady backing diagonal wall, his rotation would be none through the feet, and 1/8 to right through upper body. Her rotation would be 1/4 to right through feet, 1/8 to right through upper body. Again, this is somewhat oversimplified, but still more accurate than what the book describes.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Jonathan. If I take my first step Diag to wall with the LOD and my second step also still facing the same diagonal. Then cross behind why would I turn I am already there. The lady does have turn. If we look at the chart for the man you will see no turn by the feet. The feet are exactly on the same diagonal throughout the whole movement which includes the Progressive Chasse. This is the way Andrew Sinkinsontaught in the Seminar I attended..The shoulders are already open. Nothing there is any difference to how it is discribed in Alex Moores Book. Cheers.

From your description I understand two things: (1) You believe the lady should turn herself without being lead, and (2) you believe in promenade position, your shoulders should be at a 90 degree angle to your partner's.

I, for one, would never dare teach a lady to do anything without any sort of indication or lead. This turns the partnership into a constant guessing game rather than an act of true communication, and opens up the door for constant mistakes and misunderstandings. It's not the follower's job to do something because the book says so, it's her job to do something because the leader says so. Simply stepping sideways is not a lead to promenade.

If your shoulders are at a 90 degree angle to your partner's in promenade position, then your right shoulder sure looks nice as an earring!

Regards,
Jonathan

Jonathan,

Thank you!

I would like to underscore the point that the lady's failure to follow properly diminishes the lead's ability to manage the floor.

In a showcase, such a problem may not matter much; in a competition, however, it can mean a disaster.

jj

Jonathan wrote:

"It may be an oversimplification to say that the upper body is turned exactly a full 1/8 off of the feet in promenade, but if you allow me the liberty, this is how I would describe it: In promenade, man's feet point diagonal wall, body faces wall. Lady's feet point diagonal center, body faces center."

We should probably clarify that you appear to be using "body" specifically to mean the topline or shoulders, which is what stay parallel to the partner's (facing wall & facing center in your description).

Lower parts of the body, such as the hips, may be be somewhat less parallel. The amount of hip turnout often used in something folded on itself like a whisk tends to be greater than would be needed for a simply-forward-moving promenade as might be set up by a telemark, impetus, turning lock to R, etc.

Anonymous. The main point and the most misunderstood is that if the Whisk is taken on the alignment given in the Technique book. As the man crosses behind in the Whisk his shoulders and side of the body will be open without doing any turn at all. So why would anybody want to turn when they are already in position for a Chasse down the LOD. If you look at the chart the feet for the man are on the same line from beginning to the end of the Whisk and Progressive Chasse which leaves the RF free for a Natural movement diag to wall. The angle of the RF is so slightly differentto the other six steps its hardly worth mentioning. But the ladies step, that's a different story including that step into the Natural.
If by some chance a diferent alignment was needed as an exit from the Whisk meaning the whole thing travelling on the diagnal to the wall the man would actually have to close his shoulders and side clockwise.
For those , mostly Social Dancers , who start their Whisk facing the wall and take the second step against the LOD are incorrect. And the underturned Reverse Turn to face the wall is also wrong. Lets hear it from you experts. Is that correct or not.

"Anonymous. The main point and the most misunderstood is that if the Whisk is taken on the alignment given in the Technique book. As the man crosses behind in the Whisk his shoulders and side of the body will be open without doing any turn at all. So why would anybody want to turn"

Because if he does not rotate his upper body towards his partner, and instead retains the original alignment of his shoulders, the couple's topline will be too open for a clean promenade.

Get this very clear: the turn in the man's upper body is not to "open" to promenade, but rather to "close" to it - to keep his topline essentially parallel to his partner's.

"If you look at the chart the feet for the man are on the same line from beginning to the end of the Whisk and Progressive Chasse"

I take it you mean the same alignment, as they are most definitely not on the same line of travel or dance.

Which is another way of saying that his shoulders will have to change alignments twice during this sequence. Promenade and closed position require the dancer to have different angles between his or her feet and shoulders. To get from one to the other, he will have to adjust his foot-shoulder angle. If he dances a sequence that doesn't have any turn of the feet during these changes, he will have to turn his shoulders to accomplish the difference.

By the way, it's the chasse from promenade. The progressive chasse is a quickstep (usually) figure taken from closed position.

Anonymous.Page 147 Alex Moore ISTD.
Contrary Body Movement.Slight CBM on 1.
Rise and Fall( body ). Commence to rise at end of 1.continue to rise on 2,
up on 3.Lower at the end of 3.
Body Sway. Sway to the left on 2,3.
Amount of turn. There is no turn for the man.
Footwork 1.H.T. 2.T. 3. T. H.
How many more times do I have to draw your attention to what is the correct technique. You can read the amount of turn can't you. Which is none.
Can you also look at the chart. Are the feet across the floor pointing diag to wall or not from the first to the last step. Also is the body travelling sideways along the LOD or isn't it. The chart is on page 148.

You are quoting from Moore's "Ballroom Dancing", not a technique book. If you take a peek inside Moore's own "The Revised Technique", or either of the current technique books, either of the ISTD or Howard's for the IDTA (which you have already told us you have never consulted), you will find that in addition to the most common amalgamation/alignment, of whisk and chasse commencing facing DW, the other alignments that several of us have referred to are therein set out EXACTLY as we have described.

You are just parading your ignorance, and making yourself look dumb.

Clive . You can read I know that. Look at the book for a Whisk taken on the normal alignment. There is no turn for the man because without turning he is in a Promenade Position on the Whisk. Why would he turn when he is already in the correct position . This is on the correct alignment and not the one you use. I say that because if you new and performed the correct alignment as it is in the book you wouldn't be writting. We start diagnal to the wall and finish diagnal to the wall after the Chasse is completed.