I hope that you did not intend to imply that group classes teach bad technique. I shouldn't have to tell you that teaching technique is not the purpose of a class.

Newcomers should begin with classes - and not private lessons - because classes are an inexpensive entry point into ballroom.

Technique may be important to those of us who take dance seriously but not everyone does so. I know many social dancers who are happy simply to be on the floor with their friends.

jj

"I hope that you did not intend to imply that group classes teach bad technique."

While it wasn't my comment, I certainly would make the observation that this is often the case. Unfortunately, in many settings, the group classes are unwisely assigned to junior, technically incompetent staff members. If the teacher can neither demonstrate nor explain correctly, there is little hope of the students getting it right.

In other, more wisely run settings, group classes are taught by some of the most expert teachers.

"I shouldn't have to tell you that teaching technique is not the purpose of a class."

There certainly are classes where that is the explicit purpose, but providing a sound reference should always be important, even when it's not the primary goal. There is just no excuse for flawed demonstrations.

"Newcomers should begin with classes - and not private lessons - because classes are an inexpensive entry point into ballroom."

Provided that the classes provide entry into core concerns of ballroom, yes. But if the only coverage of topics of any real importance is in private lessons, then unfortunately those are going to be necessary almost from the start, if students are to have a chance to become aware of what ballroom dancing has to offer. I would much rather they be able to gain that exposure in group classes, economically, and with a peer group they can practice with - but that just isn't offered in many places.

"Technique may be important to those of us who take dance seriously but not everyone does so. I know many social dancers who are happy simply to be on the floor with their friends."

That's fine as a personal choice. But no one should be making that decision for anyone else by consigning them to a training situation that lacks more accurate information.

I'm not gong to get into another protracted "discussion" with you just so you can demonstrate what you think you know about ballroom.

I will simply point out that newcomers lack the knowledge to make an informed decision about choosing a private instructor and that classes give them a cheaper way to learn about the ballroom dance industry. If they enjoy what they're doing then they'll seek out on instructor on their own.

Also, those "junior, technically incompetent staff members" also wind up teaching private lessons to newcomers in most of the studios which in which I have danced.

Your last sentence is self-contradictory.

I stand by my advice. Now you can get off on having the last word again.

jj

"I will simply point out that newcomers lack the knowledge to make an informed decision about choosing a private instructor and that classes give them a cheaper way to learn about the ballroom dance industry."

They can't make an informed decision if ballroom is even right for them if there are not classes of real instructional value offered to them. Unfortunately in many locations there are not. Skipping to private lessons relatively quickly in such a situation is not a great work-around, but it may be the only work-around other than moving.

"Also, those "junior, technically incompetent staff members" also wind up teaching private lessons to newcomers in most of the studios which in which I have danced."

Yes, they do. But the key point is that in a lot of places, the competent instructors only teach private lessons, leaving the groups in the hands of the incompetent. This is a shortsighted business practice, because it leads to a higher turnover rate than when group classes provide sound information to build a strong student body, who when they escalate to private lessons, will then continue taking them for a long time.

But because those incompetent staff members do indeed also get assigned private lessons, another important thing is to never, ever pre-pay for lessons under an arrangement where the studio can change the teacher from the one you thought you were getting to a different one. Really, it's best to bypass the studio and deal directly with a competent individual teacher one lesson at a time (this is how all real teachers do business, accepting someone else's agency only when temporarily visiting a location) - unfortunately, these aren't the opportunities which are advertised to the public, so you have to identify a teacher of interest and look them up on the NDCA website to get their phone number.

"Your last sentence is self-contradictory."

No. I observed on the difference between student's right to choose a limited form of ballroom for themselves, vs someone else (your recommendation of starting with only groups apparently irrespective of their quality, combined with a studio owner's decision to offer only bad group classes in order to promote privates) consigning them to a limited one.

When good group classes are available, I strongly agree that this is the best way to start, with private lessons slowly being added until they eventually take over. But unfortunately, classes of quality comparable to private lessons are much less available than they should be.

"I enquire as a teacher of 3 + decades and successful studio owner (14 years open) and am curious what the new dancers now are looking for"

"In my experience I have met so many students who have so much bad technique coming out of group classes that I spend many hours breaking patterns and re-teaching even for fun and social situations (NOT competitive only.) You have wisely supplemented your group with privates I applaud you."

If you own the studio, you are in a position to offer this kind of solid information in a group setting. This will not only promote the idea of serious study to those not yet interested in private lessons, it will provide valuable reinforcement and a practice peer group for those who are getting individual attention in the same topics.

I like people new and dedicated dancers to find what they want. Dance provides so many benefits we all know.
when I refer to technique it is not always competitive needs but sometime just a comfortable posture, a correction of leg alignment or sadly feet imbalance (ie using the baby toe side to support your entire weight) which can lead to many physical problems if not detected and corrected early on. I support people getting on the dance floor anyway at all.

I am in a position to do this and am looking for the way it is being asked for by beginners so they can get the most benefit.

So I ask again what do u look for in a teacher.I did not ask how to purchase which lesson style.

I look for competency, certification and development, demonstration of male and female roles, break down explanations and at least 27 ways to say the same thing and above all else people skills in the wording, response and attention to details and nuance of students responses,

What do you want in teacher?

That may be the question in your original post but I was responding to the question that you posed in your reply to belle.

These are two entirely different questions because an experienced dancer knows what qualities a good instructor should exhibit while a newcomer does not.

My primary requirements are competence and honesty.

However, a newcomer would not be able to distinguish the competent professional from the slick pretender. You would be amazed at how many first-timers choose an instructor purely on looks alone.

Also, certifications may be helpful but they are not a guarantee of good instruction. They simply indicate that the holder of the certificate could pass an exam.

jj

JJ is absolutely right on the money. The newbie has no idea who is a good competent instructor and who isn't. Unless, they ask, they won't know. I look like an awesome dancer to a newbie and I'm strictly bronze. I could pass my self off as dance instructor easily and many do with less experience than me. All you have to do is know a few steps and heap on the praise and you are adored. I know 'instructors' who haven't taken a lesson in 20 years. They lose all their students eventually and those students often leave feeling bitter that they wasted a lot of time and money learning almost nothing. As well, they have to relearn almost everything.
I steer all newbies to groups for several reasons. We hire the instructors so we know they are good. Also, newbies often think dancing is easy and they get frustrated easily in a private lesson. When they are in a group, they see everyone struggling and they relax.

I think it is really hard for a new dancer to get involved in the scene. I made my fair share of errors.

I think maybe if someone just offered an introductory to understanding what ballroom dancing actually is seminar it would really help. Forget group lessons and privates and everything else if someone put together an afternoon sit down class or even a web course I think it would help ballroom immensly.

You see I was almost dancing for two years before I understood enough to even know what I wanted. I did group and private and tried competitions and showcases and bounced back and forth trying to figure out what it was I was looking for.

Group classes and private classes don't clarify the ins and outs of ballroom for people and it would save them a ton of money and wasted time.

So now I know what I want and I wasted a lot of time figuring it out.

My instructor has to be physically the right size because I am tall. Believe it or not that is a difficult point.

My instructor must be schooled in all the major areas of dance that I want to dance. He needs to actually be able to dance any step he is going to teach me and he needs to be able to do it better then I can. (By the way I have had instructors who couldn't dance as well as I could and when that happens you have to change instructors.) He must also be able to understand my learning style and get me to understand. He must hit the technique and not let me be sloppy even when it would be more fun to be sloppy. My instructor is a little high tempered and though I haven't made him mad enough that he's yelled at me several of my peers have and that's okay because he isn't really yelling at us, he's yelling at how we are dancing and he wants the best each one of us can do, no exceptions and when we aren't giving it to him he will push us. He won't let any of us compete if we aren't ready no matter how much money there is available to him because he knows it reflects badly on him.

I love that dancing is his profession and his passion and that money is just a by-product, not the ultimate goal. I couldn't dance with anyone who didn't feel that way.

I have to actually enjoy my instructor even when he's being a dictator. I need to feel he is a nice guy who isn't cheating me of my time or money and also that he believes in my ability and not my cash.

I can't stand high pressure sales guys so that can't be there either.

Yeah...that's me so anyone out there who can do it without bias...how about putting together a Ballroom Basics class that moves people through the morass....

as you point out, it would be difficult to find someone whom both sides of the equation (professionals/instructors and amateurs/students) would consider to be fair minded.

For example, were I to teach such a course, I would feel compelled to present the same cautionary, consumer-oriented advice that I provide on this board. Many pros would howl in protest in the same way that they do on this site.

Still, because the purpose of the course should be to help new students to make good consumer choices, I would maintain that it must be presented by an experienced amateur who is not beholden to any studio or professional.

The presenter would also need to be independent of any of the major governing organizations such as the NDCA or USA Dance.

In other words, there's virtually no way that such a course could be offered meaningfully.

BTW, if you don't mind my asking, Belle, how tall are you?

jj