Maybe the women weren't all that hot and they were lowering expectations.

jj

You should know. Were n't you at the next table. Seriously, I would like to hear what Terence has to say on the music that we accept as being traditional Argentine Tango.

Ahh.... music... very subjective.

like all genres, musical tastes when it come to dance, have changed dramatically over the past 75 yrs .

As to T/Arg., the classical form that many still adhere to, is to others, dated.. artists like Gardel and Pugliese, are more for the "purists" and really reflect the true essence of the dance.

With new styles being developed ( Tango Nuevo for e.g. ) the music took a sharp turn to the left.

It happened with ALL genres, from Q. step to Swing.

The main difference in T/A in the newer styles ( as one famous coach said ) is the absence of the Bandeleon..the very basis of the music.

What is played in the B/room genre is a hybrid.. but there again, so is salsa and Rumba etc.

The main thing about dance is this.. we have choice..and the choice sometimes leads to new ideas ( not all good ).

Personally, I prefer my music to be more traditional.. if you dont.. thats ok by me !

I dance club style-AT, lindy hop, club salsa, country two-step. I am taking ballroom lessons now. I can see why you might like waltz- it fits the music and has nothing like it elsewhere. But why dance ballroom tango when AT is available? AT was invented for the music. It offers more musicality, more connection and feel, more spontaneous dance choices. Likewise for lindy v. ballroom swing, or club v. ballroom salsa. Ballroom can look graceful, but ends up making all dances look the same. Tango, swing and salsa are not the same and shouldn't look the same or feel the same. Dance dances that were invented to fit the style of music, not derivations codified by upper class British and American people. You can argue that sambe is different, since there is no Brazilian partner dance even vaguely similiar. But people don't have East Coast Swing clubs; they have lindy clubs. The ballroom arm motion for latin dancing is completely foreign to the latin folk dances they are derived from. Look at a cuban rumba video to see the fun body motion that is meant to match the music instead. Go see lindy hoppers dancing to the syncopated beat of swinging jazz and you will never want to dance West Coast Swing to non-synchopated disco/funk music. AT music has a wide variety of styles composed over many decades; it isn't all slow or sad. It is like waltz in its variety; there is country music waltz, big band waltz, 1800s fold waltz etc.
I'm not saying anyone should pass a law against anyone dancing whatever they want; but I do think the authenticity argument is based in something real: certain movements were created from the sould to match certain new music styles, and feel and look better to do than what the upperclass in certain countries have done to them. Yes all dances change; yes salsa is in part a creation of New York, not just Puerto Rico or Cuba. But once you change holds, body movements, steps, stylings etc. enough they become different dances. Let's keep the dances authentic and separate!

"But why dance ballroom tango when AT is available?"

One does so because one enjoys ballroom Tango more than Argentine Tango. Also, ballroom Tango music is closer to the original Tango style of Flamenco music from Spain. Find a CD of the Romeros playing Tango and you'll understand what I mean.

In my particular case, I don't dance AT because there are no good instructors in my area (Atlanta).

Your post makes it sound as though you have some cultural issues to work out and probably not just in dance. I have to smile when I see you trying to classify ballroom dancers as "upper class." Although there are undoubtedly quite a few affluent people who enjoy ballroom at all levels, most of us are working-class folks just trying to add a little grace and beauty to our humdrum lives.

There are dances that I don't like (e.g. hustle); I made the mistake of sharing some levity about it on this board. I honestly don't care if anyone likes it as long as they don't play too much of the music when I'm at a studio party.

You can enjoy dancing the styles that you enjoy without trying to cast more formal dances in a bad light.

Hustle, now, that's another matter.

jj

I don't have cultural issues to work out. DanceSport uses forms of dance invented by upperclass British and American people. A simple truth, nothing perjorative (I am a rich white person). "East Coast swing" is a ballroom invention, an approximation, not a dance danced by swing dancers now or ever. Lindyhop has never stopped being danced; the ballroom world changed the "down" feeling of it and simplified it and eliminated much of what makes it fun and feel good to dance to the music it was invented for: syncopated swinging jazz. Lindyhop is a folk dance, spontaneously invented. Try dancing swing with a ballroom person trained in jive or East Coat swing and then a lindyhopper and you will see what I mean. Lindyhop inherited the African "down into the earth" feeling of its originators. Likewise Argentine tango. Ballroom dancers dance tango with a waltz feeling, not a "down" feeling. Lindyhop and AT connect in close in a simliar fashion, without the bending away at chest/torso feeling of ballroom. Dance salsa with a salsero and then a ballroom dancer and you will feel the same thing: the salsero dances with energy directed down into the ground. The body movement will change more depending on the music. Ballroom dancers dance with a similair style no matter the music. Look at televised competitions and you will see that the style will be unchanged even when the music changes. West Coast Swing dancers dance to funk and disco in the same way they would when a true swing song is played; it mostly isn't about the music. Argentine tango dancers will change what they are doing depending on whether it is an upbeat fast cheerful milonga being played or a slow, salon-style "classic" era Argentine tango orchestra, or an electronic nuevo composition composed last year yet still tango. You can watch a ballroom competition and people will have identical movement whether someone is playing "Mambo Italiano" or a hard-core salsa song. The swing dances will dance the identical way to any song with a 4/4 timing, syncophated or unsyncopated. In club-style, you can turn the music off and tell the music often: a lindyhopper will be dancing with blues dance moves to blues, balboa to a superfast song etc. That is my point. I'm not saying no one can enjoy ballroom style, but would you expect someone to dance country waltz to a Richard Strauss? No. In return, why dance the waltz-influenced style when dancing swing or tango, when the originals are still danced and available? Also you will find many more dancers to dance with when you travel, since AT is danced to tango music not just in Buenos Aires but worldwide at milongas everywhere. Lindyhop is danced world-wild to old-time blues and big band swing. Salsa in salsa clubs worldwide. They are still grass-roots, folk/popular danceds danced to the music that inspired them. They are much more fun to dance, and are more partner-oriented dances than the ballroom style. Ballroom seems too oriented toward figures and memorizing. I can understand waltz and samba, since the club or folk world has no existing tradition of note ever or anymore for those dances. But every big city has a AT scene, a lindyhop scene, a salsa scene. And you won't be limited to dancing with people who spent thousands of dollars on ballroom style dance lessons. I promise it will be more fun to dance lindyhop than jive; more variety, better connection, more tied to the music. Same for AT. Other than people competing in ballroom competitions, no one in the world wants to dance jive when they hear synchopated swinging jazz music. Why would they? Jive is a frozen-in-time simplified, codified dance invented by British people who were interpreting a folk dance that is still danced. Who cares what they and Arthur Murray thought? I promise if you take 1000 people and expose them to both, virutally noone would choose jive. Likewise tango; ballroom tango is a form that came about when Parisians and Londoners and New Yorkers saw the original tango dancers. Tango has never stopped being danced in Argentina, and they never saw any reason to add head-snaps and squarish promenade walks, so why would you? You can still dance the closest thing to the original dances designed for the original music. Unlike some dances AT, lindy hop and salsa have not become mere relics but are still danced; why dance ballroom waltz-inspired versions? I'm not saying expert dancers don't dance ballroom; I'm just saying if a choice exists, for most of the dances in ballroom curicula now there are competing, more fun, closer-to-authentic forms available,which allow greater musicality and connection and variety. Lindyhop is infinitely more versatile than jive or East Coast Swing. The Swedes have a swing version called bugg; I'm not saying they shouldn't dance it if they like it, but why bother if the original swing dance style still is danced and better matches the music? If ballroom dancers want to dance with elaborate arm extension and their energy directed up toward the ceiling when they dance salsa, no one is stopping them; but why bother if you have a choice?

Quickstep, serendipidy, Polished, and now {drum roll] . . . musselmant!

Only a real attention whore would come onto a ballroom message board and be so provocative. Only Q/s/P/m would do it with such awful writing.

jj

Here you go again. Nasty Nasty. But can you help it.

First.. does the word PARAGRAPH mean anything to you ??.

You have written a diatribe ( and there is alot in there that I will agree with )

You do, however , have some " root " declarations that are not supported by research...

heres one.. Balboa... I was taught( 50 plus yrs ago) and did teach the dance, in its original locale ( Calif. ) by one of the best in the genre.. it is, or should not be danced to Up tempo music.. you may do so, but that was not its original speed .

Your origins of dance leave a lot to be desired.. you,re on the right track in most cases.. but.. the " train " needs more destinations .

Lastly.... without the world of B/room.. the majority of dances would NEVER have reached the general populace, and in so doing, advanced the cultural as well as the variety within those dances .
Here is where I totally agree... the majority of dances HAVE lost their identity .