"Exactly how does she "find herself moving" in any direction? Answer: she doesn't "find herself" doing anything. She follows the mans lead."

And in so doing, she finds herself in promenade without having done anything explicitly thought of as "oh, now we're opening to promenade". The point is that there really is no explicit opening to promenade, there is just movement that is in a direction that happens to merit the label promenade, and very tiny changes in body configuration relative to the partner to support that.

"Moving into Promenade Position to begin the third step does not "overdo what is appropriate""

But trying to consciously create a feeling of his right side to her left side probably will overdo the opening.
The point of promenade is not to change the body configuration as a signal and then move, it's to move in the desired direction and along the way adjust the body configuration to the degree practical necessary to make that movement comfortable and elegant.

Every movement in the execution of any figure is made consciously at the beginning of the learning process. Through repetitive practice and improvement the explicit thought becomes second nature, the conscious becomes subconscious.

Exactly how would you instruct a lower level student to perform a new figure without being aware of the movements they are making? Saying "Do this!" and executing the movement for them doesn't work for 99.99% of the dancing population.

The point of establshing promenade POSITION is precisely what you say it isn't. Otherwise, you're expecting the follow to pop into the promenade from memory.

Through practice, the lady must learn to make adjustments to the man's movements (or "signals" if you want to use that word) until they become automatic. If not, then she isn't following and, if he needs to alter his floorcraft for situational purposes, her response will be awkward.

One video that I saw of Luca and Lorraine showed them in the gorgeous ballroom in their home. In other words, the magnificence that we see in the very best dancers (and which P/s/Q thinks beginners should be able to pick up immediately) comes from constant practice. Even they began somewhere.

jj

Three things I found helped our Open telemark, One: the man coming out backwards, Two: making sure to lower enough before going into it. Three: Lady not looking where she is going when coming out. If you look at the video's of the top dancers you will see the Lady is looking up at the ceiling and not being proud like the man.

". . . the man coming out backwards, . . ."

I don't understand what you mean by this statement. Coming out of what?

jj

"The point of establshing promenade POSITION is precisely what you say it isn't. Otherwise, you're expecting the follow to pop into the promenade from memory."

The point is that you don't have to think you are in promenade to do it well. Typically, if you really try to "go to promenade" or "establish a promenade position" you will end up too open, regardless if you are dancing as man or lady.

Instead, if you simply move in a promenade direction, while trying to keep your body parallel to your partners as you always should for any position, it will probably work out quite well.

There are some drills to practice for how the legs move across the body when stepping through in promenade, but that's to make these actions comfortable and instinctive in the body for when the body finds itself doing them without thought. Drills are not dancing. In dancing you should not be thinking about promenade, you should just be moving with your partner in the room.

"". . . the man coming out backwards"
I don't understand what you mean by this statement. Coming out of what?"

It can help if the man thinks of the direction of movement in promenade situations as feeling almost backwards over his left shoulder, rather than in between the partners.

We are not going to agree on this point.

You keep ignoring what I've written in my responses so I see no reason to continue this exchange. I don't enjoy repeating myself.

You seem to be insisting that ballroom dancing is the mindless expression of some sort of quasi-mystical urge.

Drills are practice and practice turns into good dancing. Whether you want to believe so or not, dancing is a physical skill.

See you around.

jj

One of the most tedious of dance fetishes is the notion that the bodies shouldn't turn out in PP and that the position should be almost a secret between the partners.

If that were true, the definitions of PP in the standard technique references would say so. But they don't.

". . . the man coming out backwards, . . ."

I don't understand what you mean by this statement. Coming out of what?
JJ. Hillery shows how in his teaching video,but since you don't have it I will try to explain. As you turn on the 2 step keep the left toe in strong contact on the floor and draw it up under the body along side the RF to control the amount of turn you make with the left side of the body and then take the foot back and diagonal to the wall, your body will be traveling backwards and sidewards. You will finish looking somewhere between diagonal to wall against the line of dance and looking at the wall. I hope this is correct.

The "thanks" was meant for you. anymouse sneaked in there while I was writing.

Thanks.

jj

31 messages and rising. Nobody seems to mention , maybe that dont know untill this is read and recorded. If the partnership does not have the right conection at the start of the movement that is where the trouble begins. The right area of the chest of each partner touches that of the other. In plain English. the right nipple to the right nipple. In promenade it simply rolls off by the lady, and back again after the promenade step is taken. A little trip to Learn The Dances will show the body conection as it should be . Look at any of the International Style that is there for you to look at. The bodies are no longer jammed in tight at the hip level as they were once upon a time. If you have not been told this I would suggest your teacher take a few lessons.