If a person cannot work out that the first quick is the second step and so on in the Foxtrot Feather Step, then if they get into the Rumba international style they are in trouble with the timing. You know, first step second beat.
Back to the Foxtrot. I must be missing something here. If the third step is the second quick( which it is ). "As this is indeed the second step .
Which is it?. Has it now become the second step? . By using the word nonimal is this none participation. This is worse than the Da Vinci Codes.
If the two quicks are put right on the beat. The slows can look after themselves. Dance behind the beat you will be chasing the music. Dance in front of the beat and you are out of time.
If you like to pay more attention to the slows and let the quicks look after themselves it is better to count the slow not as slow and. But call it Slowly. By the time you get to the Y you should be in a neutral position with the LF passing under the body. You will notice I use the word should, which doesn't neccesarily mean have to Might be worth remembering that when dancing any figure. Play around with the timing too much and the Choreography will not be readable. If a Fallaway Slip Pivot is danced I should be able to see exactly what your interpretation of the timing is. If they are all quicks. Better to get those quicks right on the button. Which brings us right back to dancing on the beat. Does that make sense. Go and have a look for yourself on this web site. Don't forget to double click the screen to get the full picture.

"Better to get those quicks right on the button."

The first quick BUT NOT THE SECOND. The second quick lands somehwat after beat four - look around enough and you'll even find that even Jonathan has said that.

"Go and have a look for yourself on this web site. Don't forget to double click the screen to get the full picture."

Indeed. While you are at it, count the number of video frames between the steps. You will find that they are almost exactly evenly distributed - about 20 frames each, which is 1/3 of a measure. That means that ONLY ONE OF THE STEPS CAN BE SQUARELY ON A BEAT, and that is universally recognized to be the SECOND STEP on the THIRD BEAT.

Go to the Feather Step in Learn the Dances. Listen to the narration which is right on the count.
I find it just a little bit off putting to try to work out 20 frames or a third of a measure and I don't know why anybody would want to.
On a Reverse Weave do you try to step anywere other than right on the beat.
Are you one of those who still dances to 32 bars a minute. Or are you up to date and dance 28 bars a minute. It might make a difference.
I can't see that the second quick can be behind the beat. From there we have to prepare for the Reverse by going into a neutral position ( balance point ). Unless the first of the Reverse is going to have one beat only. I'm sure that has been tried somewhere along the line.

"I find it just a little bit off putting to try to work out 20 frames or a third of a measure and I don't know why anybody would want to."

For the simple reason that the care to know the TRUTH about what was done in a particular video clip. If they'd rather maintain their treasured miconceptions, then they should avoid doing this!

(I will point out that the clip on this website was danced without music. Try comparing to some videos with and you will still find the general three equal divisions of the measure between the foot weightings)



You bet! Especially on the weave ending.

"Are you one of those who still dances to 32 bars a minute. Or are you up to date and dance 28 bars a minute. It might make a difference."

At the slower tempo, placing the steps musically rather than beginner-metronomically is even more important.

"I can't see that the second quick can be behind the beat."

Then you are extremely ignorant of proper dance technique.

OK. I went into counting frames off a Video. From a solo Feather Step by the current British Champions.
Starting to count from the time that the RF was behind the LF untill the RF is in CBMP with the left foot behind. 44 frames. The count stopped as the man straightened the right knee still on the toe. Body weight has not arrived and the weight is split. It is amazing what can be seen if one knows what to look for.
For instance the reflection of the shoe on the floor. It can be seen what is happening there.
I could have started counting as the feet were parallel and finished with the feet parellel.
You will have noticed that the turn on the Reverse was not as the step is taken, but at the end of the step.
You will have noticed that the left shoulder is not leading into the turn.
You will have noticed that they finish the second and third step square backing the LOD.
Can it be seen that the initial drive on the first of the Feather only takes two frames out of 44. Those who believe each step is of equall length could be in for a surprise along with the lifting of the feet.
This is how a step or steps can be dissected. So go for it.
Is there a point of balance or if you like a neutral position at the end of the second quick as the toe lowers. Go and have a look.

"Starting to count from the time that the RF was behind the LF untill the RF is in CBMP with the left foot behind. 44 frames."

Well first of all, you obviosly cannot have counted frames, as 44 frames is 1.4 seconds of US rate video and even longer than that at UK frame rate. Well more than the duration of even the slow, and you are describing the foot positions of the second quick.

So let's assume you somehow managed to count fields instead of frames. That gives you about .7 seconds, which (at the full precision calculation) works out to ONE THIRD OF A MEASURE at 27 mpm.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said yesterday - the second quick takes a third of a measure.

Which means that both quicks cannot possibly land on the beat.

You appear to have either made a totally erroneous measurement, or to have proven my point rather than yours...

Quickstep presumably watched current world (and British) champs Gozzoli and Betti. Here are my timings from a video of their that was on youtube (the one with the interview after they demo all five dances)

NTSC video, 30 frames per second

Weight on prep step: 0
Weight on first step: 21
Weight on first quick: 37
Weight on second quick: 61
Weight on next slow: 81

Duration of a measure (weight on slow to weight on slow) 60 frames. That would be 30 mpm, but I suspect they danced the prep step later than normal and it's really a more ordinary tempo.

Continue with measurement from weight change to weight change:

Duration of the slow: 21 frames or 20 frames (1st measure or second measure) = 1/3 measure.

Duration of first quick: 16 frames. Hey, it's actually quick!

Duration of second quick: 24 frames.
say what? The "quick" actually takes more time than the slow!

So what does this mean? It means that it's impossible to land the weight on both quicks squarely on the beat. If you put the first quick squarely on beat three, then the second quick will be 24/15 or more than a beat and a half later!

That's right - the top pros land the second quick not on beat four, but actually after the AND AFTER BEAT FOUR.

Seems we are back to square one. Frame by frame I see the foot arriving before the weight. Thats why I said as the knee straightens. That's where my count stops.
From the beginning after the count on the preperation step of 3. 4.The RF is to the rear. To count untill the knee straightens on the second quick ( third step). is still 44 frames. The weight as not arrived at this point which if you have been watching leaves them with the LF behind
You will see that the foot is in front of the body, not the body in front of the foot which should correct one of your misunderstandings. Anybody here can do the same and see which is so.
I've been looking at Gozzoli. If he is behind the beat on 4 I doubt if it could be clocked with a stop watch. Also you might notice his timing on the Feather is three quicks with one quick on the introduction step making four quicks in all QQQQ.I see on the Reverse Weave all steps on the beat.
You are now seeing how the foot is being placed before the body. You must have seen how Gozzoli come around square to the LOD on the Reverse and the toe turned in on the 4th step of the Reverse. I can't see any left shoulder leading into the Reverse. Can you.I've counted Gozzoli as 42 frames. What I did notice is the terrific amount of bending of the knee well into the 45 degree angle.The rear knee is about 9 inches from the floor very reminiscient of John Wood. Do you see the amount of turn over the left foot on the first of the Reverse Turn.Its worth a lesson working frame by frame isn't it.

"From the beginning after the count on the preperation step of 3. 4.The RF is to the rear. To count untill the knee straightens on the second quick ( third step). is still 44 frames. The weight as not arrived at this point which if you have been watching leaves them with the LF behind"

You can't expect to find the position of the third step in the measure by counting from the prep step, because you don't know when that is in the measure.

Instead, evaluate the interval between the second and third steps - and I GUARNANTEE that you will find it is well more than a beat.

"I've been looking at Gozzoli. If he is behind the beat on 4 I doubt if it could be clocked with a stop watch. "

Me too, but unlike you, I carefully measured the duration of his third step in three measures - and got the same answer of 23-24 freams ever time. The simple fact is that this is more than a beat and a half, which makes it IMPOSSIBLE FOR BOTH QUICKS TO FALL ON BEATS.

"Also you might notice his timing on the Feather is three quicks with one quick on the introduction step making four quicks in all QQQQ."

WRONG. Measure the step intervals as I did, and you will that they are not equal.

"I see on the Reverse Weave all steps on the beat."

WRONG AGAIN. Actual measurement of the timing turns out to be the same as for his feather - with the second quick placed more than 1.5 beats after the first quick.

TIME TO FACE FACTS - YOU ARE DEAD WRONG, AS ALL OF THE TOP PROS PLACE THE THIRD STEP WELL AFTER BEAT FOUR.

Contrary to quicksteps's wildly inaccurate claims, here are the actual timings from the landing of each step on Mirko's video:

All are S - Q - Q nominal

Feather: 21 - 16 -24
Reverse: 20 - 18 - 23
F.Finish: 20 - 17 - 24

Note not only the consistency of the timing through all of these basic figures, but how in each case the time between the strike of the second step and the strike of the third step is 23 frames, wheras a beat on this video is 15 frames, and 1.5 beats would be 22.5 freams.

That clearly indicates the Mirko Gozzoli consistently lands his third quick a BEAT AND HALF or more behind his second - and shows the lie in quickstep's infantile claim that he puts both steps on the beat.