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Re: what's up with rise and fall
Posted by jofjonesboro
7/20/2008  8:07:00 AM
The use of quotes helps clarify which question is being answered or point rejoined, especially when there are intervening messages between a post and its response.

The use of quotes in such a manner is a common practice on every message board which I use including this one.

jj

Re: what's up with rise and fall
Posted by Ladydance
7/20/2008  8:27:00 AM
Interested:
I'm sorry if I offended you, truly. Your question has merit but I personally find when something (a step or rise or whatever) is over analyzed, it sucks all the joy out of dancing. I just watched a couple of videos of the Hiltons dancing and I'd say that his rise and fall varies from step to step yet that did not take away from the wonderfulness of their dancing.
Who do plan to teach? You say have had a long and successful amateur career and I hope you can transfer your knowledge over to a successful teaching career. If you are going to coach championship level dancers, then your rise and fall concerns may be addressed. Beginners are scared off by too much technique right off the bat and if you make them feel they can't dance if their rise is off, they will never step on the floor. Beginners are most instructors bread and butter.
I am not a great dancer, bronze level at best, but I am a good teacher. Great dancers are not always great teachers. Anyways, I wish you well.
Re: what's up with rise and fall
Posted by interested
7/20/2008  9:20:00 AM
LadyDancer:

Please do not worry. You did not offend me, but thank you for the response.

I agree that these things are overanalysed. But I get fed up of theory that is clearly outdated ie not adhered to in practice by top competitors but still being expounded out there more generally. And there are so many paradoxes that some times I get genuinely confused by it. Your observation on the Hilton's is exactly my point. These things are not rigid.
And I get pretty fed up that when any attempt is made to air these issues, some people (those that can never be wrong) just start bulls----ing and get so defensive about it they go on the attack.

I am already teaching, not full time, in the sense I have another full time job, but teach three nights a week mainly children's formation....believe me they are perfectionsists !
Re: what's up with rise and fall
Posted by interested
7/20/2008  8:37:00 AM
Well-getting back to the subject

Perhaps the conclusion to be drawn is (in contrast to the initial text-book type answer that there is a clear difference between W and FT), that there is no difference in absolute footrise as long as whatever foot rise is used is in character - which mainly means that is the relative foot rise and the dynamics from step to step that is more important. Certainly the dancing of our top competitors seems to bear that out at least on a first glance.

So the question is why we have to say one thing for exam purposes when the reality is often different.
Re: what's up with rise and fall
Posted by anymouse
7/20/2008  10:50:00 AM
"Perhaps the conclusion to be drawn is (in contrast to the initial text-book type answer that there is a clear difference between W and FT), that there is no difference in absolute footrise as long as whatever foot rise is used is in character - which mainly means that is the relative foot rise and the dynamics from step to step that is more important. Certainly the dancing of our top competitors seems to bear that out at least on a first glance."

There are pretty obvious differences in the rise and fall between most dancer's feather vs. their waltz natural. Two basic ideas may help you understand this:

1) Waltz rise is more of a deep, underhanded swing. Instead of dancing over the foot and leg on the second step, you dance through it, continuing to rise in the foot and knee during the second step. In foxtrot there is very little continuation of foot rise during the second step (officially none), but there is some incidental gain and then loss of altitude that occurs are a result of the legs closing and then reopening.

2) Waltz figures which close the feet and then lower from this position rise enough that they can fully absorb the previous energy of horizontal movement into potential energy of body altitude. In effect, the rise until they "stall out", the movement all but stops, and we fall on a downswing path that is initially almost purely vertical, gradually curving back into horizontal. In contrast, foxtrot passing movements absorb only a fraction of the movement energy into rise, so that the body slows a little but does not stop. The peak of the rise and transition to fall is much more gradual as the vertical component at the end of step 2/start of step 3 comes only from the closing and redividing of the legs.
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