Thank you, Polished! Jonathan and Melissa's videos clearly and irrefutably show that Promenade Position results from the man's right side (or torso if you prefer) contacting the woman's with an opening of the opposite sides.

Unfortunately, you are incorrect with your nipple-to-nipple imagery. The chests of the patners never touch regardless of their position: closed, promenade, or outside partner. Again, this point is made clear on the videos to which you refer.

Even in the intimate hold of Argentine Tango, the partners' chests do not touch. If they did, there'd be a lot more guys learning to dance.

I guess you missed my post which appears much earlier in this thread which points out the importance of a proper lead into the heel turn of the Open Telemark.

Also, it's not entirely true that the lady rolls off of the man. While she certainly appears to do so in the Progressive Link of the Tango, she is clearly put there by the man on the Whisk of the Waltz.

Thanks again. It's always so encouraging to see someone growing and learning.

jj

"Unfortunately, you are incorrect with your nipple-to-nipple imagery. The chests of the patners never touch regardless of their position: closed, promenade, or outside partner. Again, this point is made clear on the videos to which you refer."

I think you'll find that in many cases the chests do touch, at least along the lower edge of the ribcage.

The height of the body connection point (at the time when there is one) varies quite a bit from one school of thought to another, with the traditionalists usually having it higher and the dynamicists having it lower.

Now in terms of what you may think you are seeing in Jonathan's videos, if you research his comments on promenade I do believe you'll discover that he's expressed an opinion that the shoulder lines should stay quite parallel. Any change in the midsection would have to be one compatible with that. In fact, Jonathan and Melissa have appeared demonstrating a rather extreme ability to get a nearly 90 degree angle between their shoulders and their feet. letting their toplines stay parallel (well, anti-parallel) and their feet also be parallel and pointed not just towards the direction of travel, but actually parallel to it.

Even if one allows that the lower edge of the ribcage is part of the chest, it is certainly nowhere near the nipple - unless we're talking about a really old couple.

"Now in terms of what you may think you are seeing in Jonathan's videos, . . ." I thought that you were better than this kind of insult.

Whatever Jonathan may say (I can't find the notes which you mention), what he and Melissa do is quite clear to see.

jj

"Even if one allows that the lower edge of the ribcage is part of the chest, it is certainly nowhere near the nipple - unless we're talking about a really old couple."

Most couples include a female partner. Females tend to have some glandular tissue on their chest wall which protrudes to one degree or another, with a wide variation from individual to individual... In many cases that means that if the "skeletal" contact (muscle-padded we hope) is at the lower edge of the ribcage, there will be "soft tissue" contact above as well.

"whatever Jonathan may say (I can't find the notes which you mention), what he and Melissa do is quite clear to see."

Indeed, they keep their shoulders quite parallel, which limits the amount of change that can occur lower in the torsos. Their ability to maintain this parallelism was better demonstrated in a promenade specific example from a few years back (I think it was american foxtrot) not prominently features on this website than in the whisk video, which does look a bit turned out to my eye. It may just be that the whisk, by virtue of having the opening-prone CBMP position occur before a clean promenade configuration can be established rather than after it already exists, is just more prone to this than the more flowing promenades of the other cases.

Anonymous. As it is written
THE HOLD.
The closed hold in ballroom requires the maintenance of five points of contact between the partners while they are dancing. These consist of three hand contacts.
1. The ladies left hand holding the man's right hand.
2. The ladies left hand resting on the top of the man's right upper arm
( behind in Tango ).
3.The man's right hand placed on the left shoulder blade on the back of the lady.
IN ADDITION TO THESE 3 HAND CONTACTS THERE ARE TWO MORE AREAS OF CONTACT
4. THE ladies left elbow rests on the man's right elbow.
5. The right area of the chest of each partner touches that of the other.

After reading this if you have one look at an old video of about 10 years ago , and then look at the latest.
Also it might be noticed that there is no mention of the hips as being a contact point.

I wonder how many ladies are comfortable with #5. There are other, different, descriptions, e.g., https://www.ballroomdancers.com/Learning_Center/Dance_Positions/info.asp?pos=cpb

Hi all--

It seems that some on this thread view the standard technique as some kind of rigid guide that is the ONLY way. The technique was originally written down by observing top dancers of the day, and through revision has given us a great *guideline* on how to dance.

But it is not meant to be the be-all, end-all of how to dance. The definitions such as "The Hold" are given as a general guideline. Just because it mentions no hip contact in no way implies that hip contact should be omitted when it would be appropriate to do so. My mentor and trainer, an ISTD president, frequently refers to the standard technique as a guide to teach beginners how to dance, and it in no way should be viewed as the only way to dance, especially when it comes to high-level competitive dancing.

joshdance. We try to copy what the best dancers are being taught. A simple look at any video of a top couple on youtube or here on this site should convince you . Over the years it has changed considerably. There was a time when the lady was right in front of the man. A picture of Victor Silvester from the 20's whos partner was his sister all that could be seen of her from his back was a lock of hair over his right shoulder. Then for a while the ladies right bust was level with the man's shirt buttons and taken away with a slight turn clockwise. Both of these positions had a heavy contact at the hip level. The first teacher to teach that the lady should be more to the man's right side was Wally Fryer even that had hip contact. Can you think of a better way to follow the man than to keep the right bust in contact with the same area as the mans. The ladies right arm will be in most cases straighter than it ever was before. Good Luck but do look for yourself.

There are many different ways for the lady to follow the man, and many of them do not even involve any body contact. The hands and arms can provide much useful information in the partnership, and body contact happens because it's a useful addition, not because we force it, and this is true for the hips, chest area, or anything else. If you think the hips should never touch, then you are trying to force something unnatural into a partnership. If they touch, they touch. If they don't, they don't.

Joshdance.I think everybody will agree with what you have written. But not everybody is that observant. When you said about the hands and arms. If you asked somebody how many couples in a major final have the thumbs protuding on the man's left and ladies right hand. The answer is all of them. That is not there as a decoration. If you we were to ask. In dancing position which is you big side and which is your small side. You would be suprised how many think the widest side when standing normal is to the man's left. When actually it is the other way around. To those who find this confusing if we think of a V the open side is to the man's right , ladies left. The narrow side is the opposite. With the right bust touching and the lady off set that is how it should be. A judge would not want to see any daylight between the couples. Good Luck and look for yourself. I have a IDSF video of one of the top Italian couples which is taken from an angle looking down. It is a pose struck for the camera which circles the dancers who are not moving. Its a pity it is not easally available. That is why I did write that it would be a good idea on a video to have some overhead shots. Which reminds me that I should tranfer the video to a DVD. Cheers