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Re: Tango
Posted by anymouse
8/18/2008  2:52:00 PM
"Obviously somebody is quoting a Chasse to the right and trying to pass the body alignments off as a chasse to the left."

No.

The referenced note (body square to wall despite feet being DW) is in the description of the chasse from promenade in the waltz section.

Re: Tango
Posted by Polished
8/18/2008  4:28:00 PM
Anonymous. " NO ". Is that what you wrote.Does that mean there is a reference to the body being square. I think you will find that the only reference to being square is for the lady and that means square to the partner and not the wall as her RF closes to the LF.
The Progressive Chasse to the right is a different story. In this case in the book it starts Diag to centre for the man and it does say backing wall and backing diag to wall on steps 2 and 3.
So exactly where does " NO " fit in.
This is now Waltz remember which is a long way from Tango.
To get back to the original question which was.Do you agree that at the end of the Progressive Link or Brush Tap you should be with your feet both man and lady in a closed position. Yes.
If you go to the chart where in this case the man and the ladies steps are in the same diagram. page 245 The Closed Promenade. At the beginning and at the end the feet are in a closed position. I think that says it all taking into consideration that it is preceeded by a Progressive Link.
On the charts each square is to scale representing 2' by 2' Does anyone want to get a ruler out and work out how close to each other the man and the ladies feet are. I don't think even blind Freddie would say it is supposed to start off in an open position.
Re: Tango
Posted by anymouse
8/18/2008  5:51:00 PM
"Does that mean there is a reference to the body being square."

Exactly, in the description of the chasse from promenade it says the body should be practically square to the wall the whole time, despite the chart showing that the feet are in other alignments.

This specifically points out the flaw in your argument from the whisk and chasse thread - you feel that the man's body should match the foot alignments throughout, but he we have a specific comment in the book that the body does not match what is given as the foot alignment, but is instead square to the wall throughout.

"I think you will find that the only reference to being square is for the lady"

You would be wrong. The note is given for both partners.

"and that means square to the partner and not the wall"

You would be wrong. It says square to the wall. Since it says this for both partners, it is implicit that they will be square to each other.

"as her RF closes to the LF."

You would be wrong. The note says throughout.

"The Progressive Chasse to the right is a different story."

The chasse to right is not a promenade figure, and is not the subject of this discussion or the referenced note, which is written specifically about the CHASSE FROM PROMENADE.

"Do you agree that at the end of the Progressive Link or Brush Tap you should be with your feet both man and lady in a closed position. Yes."

I've repeatedly stated that the progressive link, AND EVERY OTHER PROMENADE, is to be executed in as closed a position as possible. The alignment of the feet will, of course be that of promenade as the book clearly states that this is a promenade position.
Re: Tango
Posted by CliveHarrison
8/16/2008  8:59:00 AM
It's quite interesting to see whether it is just the Ballroom world that says one thing about PP, but does another (as it has been suggested), and to look at the equivalent in the Latin style.

Laird also refers to PP (as it applies to Samba, Jive and Paso Doble). And guess what: we have a virtually identical description. Take a look. And tell me (again) that I'm mistaken.
Re: Tango
Posted by anymouse
8/16/2008  9:17:00 AM
"It's quite interesting to see whether it is just the Ballroom world that says one thing about PP, but does another (as it has been suggested), and to look at the equivalent in the Latin style.

Laird also refers to PP (as it applies to Samba, Jive and Paso Doble). And guess what: we have a virtually identical description. Take a look. And tell me (again) that I'm mistaken."

When you are not trying to maintain a standard closed hold's arm line, you can turn the body into non-parallel positions without spoiling the hold. Consider for a minute a Jive chasse danced with the joined hands lowered - now you can open into a bit of a V, which would require lowering the hands, since you've already decided not to keep them up.

In effect, latin provides the illustrative example of how you would have to alter the hold in order to make a non-parallel promenade type position clean. Since you can't alter the hold in standard, you must keep your promenades parallel.
Re: Tango
Posted by CliveHarrison
8/16/2008  11:25:00 AM
"When the man's right and lady's left sides are in contact with the opposite sides of the body turned out to form a V. The feet will normally match the turning out of the body." Now, WHAT position can this be, and who says so?

Promenade Position
Posted by SocialDancer
8/17/2008  5:29:00 AM
Chris Hawkins lectured on waltz at Blackpool this year and included some discussion and demonstration of good and bad promenades. He and Justyna were certainly not parallel when in PP. They were not open at 90 degress either but were very definitely open.

But! They were also much wider in their normal hold than would be appropriate for the social dancefloor and Justyna's poise was much farther back than a typical social dancer. This bigger top line means that the difference between closed and promenade positions is less obvious and the "opening" to PP is achieved easily by a slight rotation to move the lady towards the man's right hip together with the change of lady's head line. There is no need to change the hold, it just breathes slightly.

Outside the competition or show arena the more typically compact top line means that the turn out to PP is more pronounced and can lead to an ugly right arm and shoulder for the man. However in this case the dance police are unlikely to punish a slight adjustment to the hold.
Re: Tango
Posted by nigelgwee
7/11/2008  11:03:00 AM
The Progressive Link should not be confused with the Promenade Link. This latter figure does end inline.
Re: Tango (Waltz, Really)
Posted by SuzieQ
8/18/2008  2:23:00 PM
I've followed with interest all the comment over the last couple of weeks over the correct presentation of a Chasse from PP (and the issue of the body alignment of PP generally), and now, this week's "Variation" on this site ends with a Promenade Chasse, which couldn't show more clearly the classic turn out of the bodies in the V shape referred to in the technique books.
Re: Tango (Waltz, Really)
Posted by Waltz123
8/18/2008  7:02:00 PM
, this week's "Variation" on this site ends with a Promenade Chasse, which couldn't show more clearly the classic turn out of the bodies in the V shape
V-shape of the bodies, sure. But look closely at the shoulder lines and you'll notice that they are, if not perfectly parallel, then at least very close.

By the way, that's me on the video clip. And I am a firm subscriber to the idea of shoulders parallel (or almost), hips open, feet open more. Any time I don't produce that, I consider it a mistake.

Depending on your build, you can get away with a tiny bit of angle between the shoulder lines. But it doesn't take very much before the top lines start to distort.

Our friend Polished is so caught up in what people have written in some book that he's neglected to look at the end product of his theory. Show me a couple with 90 degrees between shoulder lines and I'll show you a horrifyingly broken dance position.

Regards,
Jonathan

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