There is at least one of us who thinks that a left side leading into a Reverse movement is correct and also without any CBM. I would ask how do they propose to do either a Fallaway or a Double Reverse Spin with the left shoulder and side leading and without using CBM where it is required.

"There is at least one of us who thinks that a left side leading into a Reverse movement is correct and also without any CBM. I would ask how do they propose to do either a Fallaway or a Double Reverse Spin with the left shoulder and side leading and without using CBM where it is required."

Actually, I personally believe that reverse turns do have CBM, but it is a unique kind of CBM applicable to reverse turns, and in no way even remotely a mirror image of the CBM applicable to natural turns. To put it briefly, the shoulders are about the last thing to turn, with everything else (especially the hips) turning substantially before.

There is another viewpoint which seems to have more support amongst world class teachers than mine, and as a result it's something I have to consider. And that viewpoint is that REVERSE TURNS DO NOT HAVE CBM. Those are not my words, but the words of assorted individuals engaged in training current world finalists and champions. These teachers insist, and use specifically the foxtrot reverse or the double reverse spin to demonstrate, that there is no rotation until very late in the first step, possible even the second step. And as we know, rotation to the left on the second step cannot technically be called CBM. There is rotation to the left in a left turn of course - but if it is too late to call it CBM, then there is no CBM in a reverse turn.

The view you really will not find supported at a high level is that the top should turn left into step one of a reverse turn. It just ain't done that way by leading dancers.

Anonymous. The key to a perfectly balanced Reverse Turn is to finish step two backing the LOD ready to place step three. Today the man gets right around, not straightening up after.This can be clearly seen if you have a tape where the contestants have to do Solo Foxtrot. I will have to have another look. The one I am watching in the main is the present British Champion. I am at this momment pretty sure the whole side comes around as an un - twisted unit. This ia far different than when I first learnt many years ago, more than I care to remember. We used to be moving that second step down the LOD.Now as I said they are very square and have the apearance of coming to a halt. This can be clearly seen. That's if one knows what to watch for. The lady must love to be able to do a heel turn gracefully.

I think you will have trouble finding any world class teacher who would be happy if you were squarely backing the LOD with your body at the end of step two.

You might be backing it with your feet (probably not) but certainly not your body. Yes, you will see high level dancers over turn from time to time, but if you do it and ask a world class coach if what you did was right, they will say it is overturned.

But don't take my word for it - schedule the lesson and try it yourself!

Anonymous.Would you care to go to the Learning Section . Find the Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot and tell me what you see.
Don't give me that rubish about world class teachers I doubt if you have ever met one let alone had a lesson with one. Some of the things you have written proves to me that your a few stages above a beginner. Why do I say that. Left side leading into a Reverse. Body in front of the legs. Not keeping your sides over your hips. That is turning your hips without your shoulders. On a Backward Walk your idea of lowering is all wrong. Your idea of not counting the beats is also wrong
I have a Quickstep routine which you couldn't do without being able to count. Starting on bar 15. Try a Step Hop into Promenade. A Peperpot and Open Lock also in Promenade. Another Step Hop arrive feet together on beat four. Hold for 1234.123 stepping back on the 4th beat which is a Quick.A Passing Change. Open Promenade Turn . An Outside Spin into a Backward Change of Direction Turn to Diagnal to Centre. Hold for four beats.Finish with a Pepperpot on the 24th bar of music.Ready to start with the new phrasing.
You obviusly only do a beginners basic routine otherwise you just would not even consider dancing without those beats running through your head. Call them slows and quicks if you like.
You have a very child like mentality. Every post you try to give the impression that you are in contact with some coach or coaches of note. I've heard and seen it all before. Tell this to other people who don't understand through lack of experience but don't try it on me.
Go to the Learning Centre or any tape or DVD and you will see that they are square to their front just as I wrote.With a momentory pause. Before you get onto that I will answer before you write. If you open a door and then bring the door back to you there has to be a pause between the opening and closing. Right.

" Don't give me that rubish about world class teachers I doubt if you have ever met one let alone had a lesson with one."

You can doubt all you want.

I know who I've had lessons with, and I know what they told me, I know what they told those I compete against, and I know what they told our teachers.

My posts here attempt to reflect a summary of that... but if you don't want to believe me, you will just have to book your own lessons.

"I have a Quickstep routine which you couldn't do without being able to count. Starting on bar 15. Try a Step Hop into Promenade. A Peperpot and Open Lock also in Promenade. Another Step Hop arrive feet together on beat four. Hold for 1234.123 stepping back on the 4th beat which is a Quick.A Passing Change. Open Promenade Turn . An Outside Spin into a Backward Change of Direction Turn to Diagnal to Centre. Hold for four beats.Finish with a Pepperpot on the 24th bar of music.Ready to start with the new phrasing.
You obviusly only do a beginners basic routine otherwise you just would not even consider dancing without those beats running through your head."

Translated, what you are saying is that you have a routine complicated enough that you can only survive it with the aid of structured learning devices.

But if you want to be a real dance, and IMPROVISE material of that complexity, you will need to learn to know where you are in the musical phrase without counting. You will need to be able to just know that at all times, without worrying how. You will have to be able to get yourself from where you are to the end of the phrase with a good series of actions that matches the music and avoids the other couples. Ballroom dancers tend to learn this skill last - only after studying routines for years. Swing dancers on the other hand learn that aspect of dancing to the music first - they learn to dance expressively, while having much less interest in the kind of technical perfection we ballroom people obsess about.

A true dancer would have to eventually do both - be technically superb, but also be musical by instinct, rather than by the artifice of counting.

Call them slows and quicks if you like.
You have a very child like mentality. Every post you try to give the impression that you are in contact with some coach or coaches of note. I've heard and seen it all before. Tell this to other people who don't understand through lack of experience but don't try it on me.
Go to the Learning Centre or any tape or DVD and you will see that they are square to their front just as I wrote.With a momentory pause. Before you get onto that I will answer before you write. If you open a door and then bring the door back to you there has to be a pause between the opening and closing. Right.

"Go to the Learning Centre or any tape or DVD and you will see that they are square to their front just as I wrote."

Take a lesson with a leading coach, and you will find that you are never square is a terrible place to be. You always end under-turned when you move past the beginner stage, because that gives you the start of your next action. If you end square, you are simply stuck, with no where to go next.

Remember you can't actually step forward or backwards relative to your body, only on diagonals to the body - which of course will be forward or backward to the feet and thus described in the foot-perspective of the textbook as forward or backward...

Anonymous. When you are on step two and three you should be in the same position as you started in relation to the lady.If you look at the charts the two steps are taken straight down the line of dance. You may like to know there is CBM on 1, 4, and 7. It can't be much clearer than that. If where you come from they make there own rules. All I can say is keep going. But keep it a secret.

"If you look at the charts the two steps are taken straight down the line of dance. "

The direction in which the steps are taken does not provide any information as to what direction the body must be facing when they are taken.

The book also tells you the direction in which the feet will be pointing when those steps are taken. But even that won't tell you the direction in which your body should be facing.

You could either take my advice on that - leave the body under turned. Or you could schedule a lesson with a world class coach and get the same advice, in their words.