I have a question about dance timing,
Our studio is having a discussion about 1/2 and whole beats in all differant dance,
some people say that the 1/2 goes with the preceding beat, but some say the 1/2 goes with the next beat....HELP!!!!!!!!

SOME ONE WITH DETAIL PLEASE, MOlly

For International style dances the 'and' is always taken from the preceding beat, and is usually half a beat. Similarly a count of 'a' is also taken from the preceding beat and is usually a quarter.

For example:
Waltz chasse is 1 2 & 3, or 1 1/2 1/2 1
Samba basic is 1 a 2, or 3/4 1/4 1

I said 'and' is usually 1/2 a beat. One exception is Tango where slowa are 1, quicks are 1/2 so the 'and' is then 1/4 beat.

I've never seen this as a written law, but it may be deduced from the charts in the technique books by comparing the counts with their beat values.

Some dancers may play with syncopations and may believe they are stealing from the following beat, but I suspect in practice that they are not. I'm sure it would look and feel strange if the power steps were not taken at the start of a main beat.

HTH

Howard

its always danced like its spoken

dont mistake the lenght of a beat and the beat count.

the lenght is the time between two counts.

a common rythm pattern for latin dances is:

a & a 1 a & a 2 a & a 3 a & a 4

1/4 1/2 3/4 1 5/4 3/2 7/4 2 9/4 5/2 ...

1/4 1/4 1/4 1/4 1/4 ...

the first line is the spoken counts, and the second line are the time between start (0) and the count.the third line is the time difference between the counts

walt chasse timing 1 2&3 is: 1 full beat, 1 full beat , an half and an half. but there are a lot of common syncopations allowed in walt, i.e. :

&1 2 3 for running left turn (1&2 3 is common,too)

or templturn 1 2&3&

while looking to worldchampions you will recognice that they dance sometimes chasse with the rythm &1 &3 or even &1 3& .

so you can dance like socialdancers interpretation of chasse 1&2 3,too.

be creative and play with the music

Samba basic rythm 1a2 is a little bit more tricky 1 full beat, a quarter beat and a 3 quarter beat.
a variant is the volta timing 1a2a3a4 . dancing Criss Cross 1a2a3a4 1a2a3a4, a common biginner failure is not to dance correctly beat 4 , its longer than the others, there is no "a".

An other possible Samba rythm is 1&2 or &1 2, 1 full beat and an half and an half. (counted: slow quick quick [or quick quick slow]) used in i.e. Rocks

A absolute different rythm variant of Samba is used in running promenades. (there exist a variant of the running promenades with q,q,s rythm,too)
the counting is 1,2,3 on 2 full beats. there are different opinions about the rythm interpretation of this syncopation, but its not &1 2(half,half,full). The variant popular in germany is 3/4 beat 1/2 beat 3/4 beat or 5/8 beat 5/8 beat 6/8 beat.

there are a lot of possible syncopation in Samba listen to a rythm only song ...

There are some other ideas about rythm interpretation, too. i.e.

In CCC the basic rytm is 4a1 2 3. you can dance it like: full beat(4),half beat(a), half beat(1), full beat(2), full beat(3) ...

but if you take a closer look on top couples they mostly use a slight differnt timing, the "and" wanders closer to beat 4, so that there is more time for beat 1 . If listen carfully to the music you hear that the "and" isnt exactly the half, ist more a "third"

there are similar opinions about the chasse in walt, too. so I ve heard differnet opinions from different trainers & couples. One told me that the "and" is more closer to beat 2 the next told me that the "and" is a little bit closer to 3. I choose the second variant, because my feeling is it fits better to the music.

Its music, not mathematics , so dont care about "unround" numbers

a common rythm pattern for latin dances is:

a & a 1 a & a 2 a & a 3 a & a 4

1/4 1/2 3/4 1 5/4 3/2 7/4 2 9/4 5/2 ...

1/4 1/4 1/4 1/4 1/4 ...

the first line is the spoken counts, and the second line are the time between start (0) and the count.the third line is the time difference between the counts

hope this helps.

[This message was edited by curl on 08-26-01 at 03:29 AM.]

I have to agree with Socialdancer on this that the "&" or "a" are associated with the preceding beat number. The classic example is with basic cha-cha timing, 2-3-4&-1. The 1/2-beat steps are 4& not &1.

Blair

I think we've just demonstrated the problem Molly is seeing. ;-p

Curl and I both agree that a waltz chasse timing is 12&3. Curl links the & to the following step (3) to give beat values of 1,1,1/2,1/2 whereas I link it to the preceding step (2) to give values of 1,1/2,1/2,1.

Similarly the samba rhythm 1a2 Curl says is 1,1/4,3/4 while I say 3/4,1/4,1.

I do agree with Curl's interpretation of Volta timing, 1a2a3a4, making the 4 the full beat value as there is no (following) "a".

I believe Curl is from Germany and this may help explain our different viewpoints; If we English say the time is "half seven" we mean 7:30, a German would take the equivalent "halb sieben" as 6:30. It's safest therefore to arrange meetings between English and Germans to start exactly on the hour.

As Curl says, there is always scope for playing with the timing to add a personalised styling and interpretation, preferably by advanced dancers who realise that they are doing so.
However, when an instructor suggests the student dance a figure with a particular timing, say 1&23, then it would be a great help if both parties interpret that instruction the same.

Howard

hi,

there is an other point,too.

start counting at 0 or 1 and finish at 3 or before 1.

we need an expert of musictheoretics to solve this problem