Hi everyone,

I notice that a lot of the time during dancing competitions seen on TV during quickstep the couples spend most of their time in Promenade position. But looking through the ISTD book (in preparation for an expected quickstep clsss in July) most everything is in closed position.

So to do various suitable moves (e.g. forward lock stpe) in PP do you kind of conspire with your partner beforehand to alter her steps so it works in PP? Is this suitable when one goes social dancing?

Thanks,

Dave G.

Dronak, I wasn't implying that you were saying anything inaccurate! I wasn't replying to your post at all actually, just adding on. The original poster seemed to think that a whole lot of Quickstep was in PP and I wanted to make the point that a fair number of steps have the lady's head open but are not in PP. That's all!

Oh, oh, I see I've stirred up a hornet's nest. Desecrated the holy book I did.

"What is the name of the figure you mentioned, dave_hat? The one that both "leader and follower" do a forward lock?"

I guess it doesn't have a name (yet.) But one would like to be able to formulate as a general principle a "transform" by which a PP figure can be synthesized (with no guarantee of the quality of the result, of course) from any non-PP figure.

"Also, your descrition of the Forward Lock is: fwd, fwd, cross, but it should be fwd, diag fwd, cross. Would you please check the book again, dave_hat?"

Nope, that's what I meant to say. I don't think diag fwd is so useful in PP, right?

However the other posting about the ending being tricky may have some merit... I'll have to try it out with a partner.

DG

Indeed, you can "synthesize" a step - make anything up, but that doesn't mean it's in the technique book or is a good idea. As I explained earlier I *don't* think it's a good to do a F Lock on PP because it violates the lead/follow principle. I would particularly not recommend closing at the point you described, because closing would be a reverse action within the frame, but to get to a nice free Outside Partner step you need a Natural action through the top of the frame, so you'd be going left to go right, over 1 beat in Quickstep... not a formula for good movement.

I admire Dave's creativity and would encourage him to continue experimenting with ideas. However the ending is inherently problematic, as "info" pointed out. It would be much easier to stay in PP and then either repeat, or follow with a Chasse from PP as in Waltz.

There's also a small problem with the description itself: Generally the man's LF (lady's RF) step (AKA the "outside leg") is described as being either side & slightly forward in PP or diagonally forward in PP. Only the inside leg is described as forward & across. This is just a matter of learning the conventions... I think most everybody still got what he meant.

As for the matter of the lock being leadable, that depends on one's standards with regards to the definition. In the truest sense of the word, it's not. You're not likely to get someone to do it who has no experience with it (especially not a newcomer). And unfortunately, that includes most people, because it's not a common thing to dance. But if, for example, you practice it enough with your regular partner, you could certainly get her to recognize and follow the figure, and even distinguish between that and a similar figure, such as a promenade chasse or opposition grapevine.

Now speaking of the promenade chasse and the opposition grapevine, these are probably better choices because they are both very closely related, but much more leadable (following a stricter interpretation). Rather than worrying about how best to execute a lock in PP, I would suggest pursuing these two versions instead... problem solved.

The promenade chasse is the simpler and more leadable version (especially with beginners). The opposition grapevine is the fancier version, slightly more advanced, but still very leadable, and frankly cooler looking than a lock in PP anyway. You might even say that it is sort of a lock in PP, but with slightly more flair. Here's a quick description of each (according to man's part; lady's part is natural opposite):

Chasse:
1. RF forward & across in PP & CBMP.
2. LF diagonally forward in PP.
3. RF closes to LF in PP.
4. LF diagonally forward in PP.
Repeat, or follow with the Waltz version of a Chasse from PP.

Opposition Grapevine:
1. RF forward & across in PP & CBMP.
2. LF side, facing partnner.
3. RF cross behind LF in counter-fallaway position. Head turned to right.
4. LF side & slightly forward in PP.
Repeat, or follow with the Waltz version of a Chasse from PP.

Oh yeah, all of the above should either be counted SQQS or SQ&Q.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Hmm, let me fish out my ISTD book and see if I can synthesize a PP forward lock step...

Begin in PP facing LOD

Leader:
1. RF fwd and across in PP
2. LF fwd and across in PP
3. RF cross behind LF (still in PP)
4. LF fwd (still in PP)
5. RF fwd (outside partner to get pointed DW and into next figure, slight turn to right.)

Follower:
1. LF fwd and across in PP
2. RF fwd and across in PP
3. LF cross behind RF (still in PP)
4. RF fwd (pivoting on it to become 'partner outside', 1/5 turn to left.)
5. LF back (in 'partner outside' position and into next figure.)

Indeed, the two of them would need to preplan this.

ps: ISTD's "Man or Lady" caption is very confusing here.

DG

What is the name of the figure you mentioned, dave_hat? The one that both "leader and follower" do a forward lock?

As far as I know, there is no figure like that in the technique book of ISTD (The Ballroom Technique, latest version). You don't need to remember exactly all the names of figures, but should analyze the technique deeply. Generally, I completely agree with info, that we can't do a Forward Lock in PP, since both dancers will soon move apart from each other. Therefore, I guess dave_hat may confuse the Forward Lock and Back Lock in the book, where in the Forward Lock, the Leader moves fwd, and in the Back Lock, the Follower moves fwd?

Also, your descrition of the Forward Lock is: fwd, fwd, cross, but it should be fwd, diag fwd, cross. Would you please check the book again, dave_hat?

Best regards,
MSN

Syllabus quickstep doesn't have any PP moves. At least I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Don't ask me exactly why though, I don't think I could tell you. If you're going to be taking a class, chances are you're going to stick with the syllabus. All those fancy jumping/hopping moves and runs or chasses in PP and stuff are open level figures. You probably won't do them for a while. In competitions, the dancers have routines they use so both partners know what's coming up when. Of course, they may have to adjust it for floorcraft purposes, but generally speaking the lady knows what to expect. Generally this makes it a lot easier for the lady to do her very best and put her all into the figure because she doesn't actually have to wait for the lead to tell her what figure is next. When social dancing, you can dance whatever you like as long as you can lead it and your partner can follow it. If you can lead her into a PP figure and back out again, feel free to do so. Most people are used to dancing quickstep without PP though, so I suspect it may be a little hard to lead PP figures socially. Nothing's stopping you from trying if you want to though.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall

I don't know that most of Open moves are in PP in Quickstep. And I would never suggest that anyone do a lock in PP - even for Open, I like the steps to be leadable, and you can't properly lead someone to a lock if you are also doing one, in PP. A chasse, yes, but to do a lock you have to be moving diagonally to your foot position. Not a good idea to go diagonal in PP, and the partners would have to moving on separate diagonals (away from each other) to both do a F Lock, so I'd be against it. I'm OK with Open moves that have a part that not lead - styling, foot flicks, and whatnot - but I strongly feel that the movement should be lead.

If you want a variation, from plain old closed position but haven't learned Open steps yet that have it, there are places where you can shape to left (this is for the leader) and encourage the lady to turn her head. Try this on Forward Lock (steps 1-2) or Tipsies. Just be sure to level off before the transition to the next step!

Watch carefully the next time you see an Open Quickstep - I'm pretty sure that a lot of the times when the lady's head is to right they're not actually in PP. Pendulums and Run often are, but scatter chasses are in closed position but shaped so that the lady can open her head. Quick Open Reverse and back steps in Outside Partner are other examples - body position is Outside Partner, but with a shape the lady's head may turn right.

And of course there are steps in Fallaway, but that is the same body position as PP.

Quick clarification: I didn't mean to imply that most open quickstep figures are in PP. I'm sure there are plenty of open figures that don't use PP. What I meant was figures that are in PP in quickstep are open level and not syllabus. That's all.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall