I am pondering open figures in waltz and looking for an explanation of why the third step of, for example, an outside change, is "up" and not "continue to rise".

I assume (maybe wrongly) that the "up" indicates no further rise as step 3 is taken so that the overall height remains more or less the same on 3 as at the end of two, and so represents a lower height cf basic basic rise and fall figures.

I am guessing that it is to do with the use of the ankles and the fact that they are already more extended when the feet are apart such that extending them more to gain height would be uncomfortable. Again I may be wrong.

Any views on this would be much appreciated particularly with regards reasons why - as the reasons seem to be less well aired than the technique itself.

I post this question with some reluctance after posing a similar question recently and apparently rubbing someone up the wrong way with my response, and receiving a great deal of grief for it. I will say that I am inclined to respond questioningly to information I am given - but this is because I am in the throes of exploring these issues in order to understand them to my own satisfaction and am not trying to be controversial or disrespectful, and I apologise if it seems that I am. I hope there are some out there who are able to appreciate that. I also hope no-one will poke fun if they consider my question naive. Thank You.

"I am pondering open figures in waltz and looking for an explanation of why the third step of, for example, an outside change, is "up" and not "continue to rise"."

Two reasons:

1) The overall rise in a foot closure waltz figure is higher, because the energy that was in horizontal movement will be almost completely converted into body altitude, letting your travel pause at the top. In something like foxtrot you'd get only partial conversion, so the body would slow but not stop, and the altitude would be less. A passing figure in waltz is somewhere in between a closing figure in waltz and a passing figure in foxtrot in this respect.

2) A major reason why a continuation of rise on step 3 is listed for the foot closure waltz figures is that the formal boundary line between step 2 and step 3 falls earlier in the sequence list of actions in the closing case than it does in the passing case. The end of step 2 for a passing figure is defined to occur when the feet pass, so any rise occurring before this is part of step 2. But the end of step two for a closing figure is defined to occur when the foot is halfway closed, so any rise occurring between the time when the feet are halfway closed and the time when they pass is formally considered to occur during step three. Thus rise occurring during the later half of the closing action is formally listed as part of step 3 if the feet are going to stop closed, but would have to be considered part of step 2 if the foot is going to pass through closure to a new position.

Odd that you don't mention sway.

jj

"Odd that you don't mention sway."

In what way do you think its presence or absence is relevant to the question?

In every figure in the Waltz in which one foot closes to the other with weight there is sway.

jj

"In every figure in the Waltz in which one foot closes to the other with weight there is sway."

Let's say that you are proposing that sway is used to stabilize foot closure positions. And I said the foot closure positions have higher rise. That makes sway and continued rise often occur together, but it doesn't really mean that one causes the other in terms of answering interested's question.

(Incidentally, you need a better qualifier than "with weight" as this would include a chasse from promenade, which formally does not have sway, though many would make good use of sway in the more dynamic version preferred today.)

Of course sway is used for stabilization. What other purpose would it serve?

I never claimed that there is a causal relationship between foot rise and sway. There can be foot rise without sway (an Outside Spin) and sway without foot rise (the last step of a Hesitation Change).

As for the Chasse' from PP, your point depends on what you mean by "stop closed." Yes the RF closes to the LF on step 3 of the Chasse' and does so with weight but the figure does not "stop" there because it is step 3 and not count 3.

We can quibble forever about the semantics of your statement but I can't think of a single Waltz figure which ends with both feet risen.

The relevance of all of this to the original question has to do with simplicity of expression. You could much more easily have pointed out that there is no sway on step 3 of an Outside Change so that continuing to rise to full extension would create a balance problem.

Good discussion; makes one think.

jj

"You could much more easily have pointed out that there is no sway on step 3 of an Outside Change so that continuing to rise to full extension would create a balance problem."

This is in no way an answer to the question though, as it would seem to imply that any figure with sway rises to full extension, which we know isn't the case.

Since this isn't true, we can't use the presence of sway to figure out what the rise should be, but we can use the question of closing or passing can give a lot of guidance as to what the rise should be.

Thats why my answer explained the direct link of rise to closing vs. passing, and did not mention sway.

(Sorry. Wasn't finished editing that and got pulled back in to work. I'm supposed to be off the clock now. That response had to appear to be weird.)

As far as syllabus figures go I'll have to admit that you're correct.

I have had curved figures choreographed for me which did require some sway on what you call a passing step, followed with a forward check. I do remember the full extension though because it took me several tries before I learned how to keep my balance while lowering.

Thanks for the exchange.

jj

"Is there sway on step 2 of a Natural or Reverse turn in Waltz?"

Is there sway on step 2 of a telemark or impetus in waltz?

The answers of course are yes, yes, yes, and yes.

Which means that the presence of sway can't tell you why one type of rise is used vs. another, because while your examples and mine all have sway, they collectively encompass at least three different kinds of rise.