Hi everyone,

This morning was the first day of the Int'l Std "bronze brunch" class, and wow! was it rigourous!

We were taught to stand with our bodies squashed up against each other all the way down our right side. This certainly made things difficult. It was especially disconcerting to try to step RF fwd and be rubbing against your partner's leg the whole time. It felt like dancing while hauling a wiggly sack of potatoes around on your thigh! Even a good old left box turn was hard -- I ended up on the wrong foot several times and my timing was miserable -- something that never happened once in 2 months of recent social dancing classes.

But one can also sympathize with Arthur Murray for trying to simplify dancing -- otherwise I doubt anyone would.

I can't imagine this is correct. It seems that one should maintain just a light contact with your partner and never contact each other's legs... We'll see next week... meanwhile I am hoping to line up a practice partner and put in some time this week before next week's meeting.

Thoughts?

ps: At this rate it will be a while before I get to try out my synthetic PP lock step, eh?

I guess dave_hat's class is for, at least, intermediate dancers, who can danced basic step quite "naturally". I think they never teach Body Contact to absolutely beginners. Those should focus only on which leg/foot to move, counting and timing, knowing the basic hold and poise, moving with partners.

Body Contact should be introduced early, of course not too early. But learners are not required to do it exactly the same as the "true" technique. They only need to know what is correct, and do as much as they can. It's applicable for one year experienced dancers and higher, and necessary for really serious ones only.

No I don't think body contact is heavy. Just enough for both dancers "feel" the move and rhythm of each other. Right, enough to establish connection. About legs contact, I sometimes feel, but can't admit whether it always happens (constant contact) or not.

One comment about body contact in PP: for me it is "Right" to "Center". When in Closed Position, it is slightly R to R (Man's R side to Lady's R side). Therefore, when "switch" to PP, keeping the frame stable, Lady's body will "roll" to Centre, not to L side since it is too far. Any comments?

Best regards,
MSN

Following up on the posts by Dronak and PantherSon:

Yes, the body contact in closed position does cover a region, not a small spot. The main difference is that the center of contact tends to be lower (at least in American style as I know it) for tango than it is for waltz or foxtrot.

No, the leg contact is not constant, certainly not on the lower part of the leg, but it does happen. My teacher likes to have a light brush (man's inside right leg on woman's inside right leg) on the right foot forward step, because it keeps the man's right foot from straying over into the territory for the woman's left foot.

On promenade position, I didn't want to get too specific since dave_hat was talking about closed position. When going to PP, the man is to the left of the woman in closed position (from his point of view), so when the woman rolls off his hip, the man will be slightly ahead of the woman, and contact will be more forward and to center on the woman. (Not all the way to her center though, I think).

Much harder to explain in words than to show!

-John

Very interesting report, Dave. I was wondering how that class would work out.

There's a couple of different approaches that teachers take with regard to body contact. Some think you should start with it pretty early, and focus on getting the partners properly snugged up to each other. Other teachers take the approach that there's no point in forcing the body contact or even really messing around with it until each partner has their own posture and movement issues sorted out. I've been dancing with my teacher for 4 1/2 years now and we're really only now starting to work seriously on body contact.

Laura

The way I remember being told PP should end up is that the lady should be behind the man's right hip. The woman is going to have to sort of roll around the man to go from closed facing to PP, so the body contact will have to change. The change should bring the lady somewhat behind the man with her left hip behind his right hip. Since the bodies are turned to form a V-like shape in PP, the body contact should be somewhere around halfway between the lady's left side and her center. For the man, since the lady's behind him, the contact would be more along his right side. As JohnS noted, it's rather hard to explain in words alone, but hopefully this is giving you some help for when you need to know more about PP.

Ah, here's something that might be interesting. A couple years back I was at a workshop where the teacher(s?) talked about the body contact line in different dance positions. They way they did it was by saying 0 is on the side of the body and 10 is on the center, the shirt button line. You then pick the number corresponding to where the contact line is for man and lady, right or left sides. Hopefully I didn't make mistakes in writing down what they said. Here's what I have and I think the numbers are approximates, they could vary a little bit but should be close to the real contact line: closed = man's R5 to lady's R5, PP/FA = man's R2 to lady's L5, Hover Cross = man's L5 to lady's L5 (I have a ? there though), CPP = man's L to lady's R (I guess they didn't give a number). Do others find this method of description helpful? I liked it, but only have those few examples from the workshop; they didn't run through all the major positions (e.g., OP is missing). Perhaps if others like this method of describing the body contact line we could work out what other positions are?

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall

Is heavy body contact really normal for International? I've seen differing opinions elsewhere. I'm curious, since I'm learning American smooth, and while we use body contact, it's generally light, just enough to establish communication.

I go to a studio whose owner came from the Arthur Murray chain, and so the studio does American style smooth and rhythm.

Beyond the initial level of instruction in smooth dancing, body contact is the norm at our studio. By this I mean that there is diaphragm level contact in waltz and foxtrot, and somewhat lower in tango (lower abdomen/hip). In addition, the inside of the man's right leg brushes against the inside of the woman's right leg to establish positioning during movement.

During promenade, contact is maintained between the man's right side/hip and the woman's left side.

In tango there is also contact between the man's left leg and the woman's right leg which functions as something of a lead to drive movement.

All of these body contact issues are typically not emphasized for a while when starting to learn the smooth dances, but are considered normal beyond that. It's just too much to deal with initially, on top of learning to move your body and feet, and either learning to lead or follow. Also, many people start with body contact issues if you're not dancing with your significant other.

-John

No, I don't think heavy body contact is necessary. I think dave_hat's "squashed up" is an exaggeration. If you're not used to dancing with body contact at all, when you do so at first it could feel like you are squashed up against your partner. I'm not going to search my notes, but I believe that the body contact usually goes from about mid-chest/breast level to about the hips. Primarily that's the diaphragm/abdomen level JohnS mentions, but I think the contact area is usually a little bigger than that alone. You may have some brushing of the legs, but in general I don't think it should feel like you're in constant contact with your partner's leg(s). After all, the offset positioning is meant to allow the dancers' legs to swing between each other's legs. Contact higher up on the leg, at the thigh or hamstring, wouldn't be unusual. You're getting near where the leg joins the hip and there's less space between your legs closer to the hip. But you shouldn't really have contact lower down the leg. You might brush against each other's legs sometimes, but the contact shouldn't be constant I don't think.

I'm talking about standard closed position here. Tango is different, PP is different, OP is different, etc. I assume you were talking about closed position from what you wrote and because that's normally where you start so I limited my comments to that position. And yes, JohnS is generally right that most of the times the beginner classes don't put much emphasis on getting proper body contact right away. Not everyone is comfortable getting that close to someone they don't know and there's plenty for beginners to worry about already without adding that to the mix. If you can get it down properly earlier, great, but I wouldn't be horribly concerned over it in the very beginning.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall