Hi everyone,

We finished up our 4 week Int'l bronze waltz class sunday. Next month is tango.

I've gotta say I'm kind of disappointed. The class was too small and didn't have quite the critical mass to make it work well.

Somewhat more irritating was the teaching methods. The teacher had a rigid routine (which even she admitted wasn't useful for much beyond class use)

We started out with a sequence called "Wall 1" (how's that for an inspiring name?) which started with a tricky leader LF fwd "prep step" on beat 3 into a natural turn. Not an easy intro for those of us used to American style. When I asked why not start with leader LF reverse turn on beat 1 and do the natural turn after a closed change I was told in effect, "that's clever thinking but this is how every intro Bronze Int'l waltz class has been taught everywhere since time immemorial" (having been a teacher myself, albeit discrete mathematics rather than dancing, I found this a singularly stupid reason for choosing a certain pedagogy.)

This "traditional routine-based" teaching also made it difficult because it forced us to spend a great deal of mental energy trying to remember what was supposed to come next in the pattern, exactly when we were supposed to switch from "Wall 1" to "Wall 2", etc. rather than what I think is much more useful: how to lead and/or follow these figures when you're out there on friday night with everyone else swarming around. To this day I am not sure how a follower is supposed to tell the difference between a badly-led natural turn and a spin turn... In American-style social dancing classes one focuses first on each figure and the routines are pretty simple and easy to remember ("4 boxes with turn, 4 boxes with underarm turn, 4 twinkles, 4 hesitations, repeat...") -- One has to wonder if the USA's isolation from the rest of the world has left us with a fossilized and antiquated way of teaching Int'l style while elsewhere it is taught socially with a bit more pedagogical sophistication. ?

Anyway, we'll see how tango works out. If it doesn't get better I'll just go ahead and teach myself via videos and the ISTD textbook.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dave

[This message was edited by dave_hat on 05-28-02 at 12:16 AM.]

starting with a prepstep LF into natural turn is common in int'l style. swinging is much better done while body is in movement. this is used in QF, SF ,too. For VW a preparation step LF back is mostly used.

long side:
natural turn, natural spin, 3 x left turn , whisk (turned to corner)
short side:
chasse, natural turn outside position, hesitation change, chasse , natural change,
start over.

this will be a good start

american style doesnt impressed me much because its doesnt cover my idea of beautiful body lines and graceful movement. but may be i never saw a really good couple so this is no rating.


dont forget to have fun

Thank you, curl, for the quick reply. Yeah, wall = side, I see. That sucks for the ball-floor? But dancers must imagine a rectangle around, I think.

I am not very familiar with routines since I don't use them frequently. From my point of view, routines are good to practise some figures of the class, and the link between them. But in practical dances, repeating routines often makes it boring. I think Man should know this in order not to make his Lady be unhappy.

This is a interesting topic. Let's wait for other expert's comments

Best regards,
MSN

I wouldn't get too hung up in this routine that your teacher put together. This is just a method to go through all the bronze waltz figures. If you don't like to start with the prep step for social dancing just start with a reverse turn or a closed change. In terms of dancing them in a different order just remember that figures starting in the same direction (i.e. diagonal wall) with the same starting foot (I.e. right foot ) are interchangeable on the floor.

Blair

As far as the prep step goes, my understanding is that it's done that way so that you can build up a little momentum for your first swinging movement. I suspect that many many years ago (50? 60?) people used to start on the 1, but someone figured out they can swing a better first figure (whatever their first figure is) if they started moving on the last beat of the previous measure. All the swinging dances in Standard do this. When I started learning American Style (after 4+ years of Standard) it drove me crazy that there was no prep step

As for the difference between a badly led natural and a spin turn: the natural spin turn starts with half a natural, and the follower definitely can't tell the difference between this and any other half natural. It is on the second part of the natural spin turn, where the actual spinning takes place, that the lead is felt. It's pretty obvious because the leader cuts off the follower, making her overrotate her 2nd step (so that's the 5th step of the pattern). The lead would have to be really bad for the follower to miss it.

It would be very interesting for a Standard class to be taught from the standpoint of what preceeds and follows work together, as opposed to in wall-sized chunks. The teacher could start with something very basic that can be repeated so you can get down a wall, and then teach you something to go around a corner. With that you can get around the room, and then from there the teacher could start adding new patterns by explaining what works after what. I wonder how that would work?

In the US, Standard isn't taught so that you can navigate a crowded floor on a Friday night. It's taught to be a competitive venture. It's kind of sad because that leaves lots and lots of beginners with no idea how to do anything but their routines. I've never really seen floorcraft taught anywhere, except it would be mentioned in terms of "you can overturn or underturn this figure if you need to get around someone."

Teaching yourself Standard from the ISTD books and videos might be very difficult. I say this because if you've ever read the ISTD books, they seem really hard to process unless you already know the step. Once you know the step, everything in the book makes sense, and it's a great memory aid to help you reconstruct what you've been taught in class or by your teacher.

Laura

While I'm trying with my poor English, Laura and curl have swiftly posted their replies After reading, here are some more thoughts of mine:

- Wall: is it the Side of the room?

- Prep step and the swing: I totally agree with you. But I think is for advanced dancers. Must beginners do the swing, sway, rise and fall in their first dances? I think no. It's better to let them feel as natural as possible.

To Laura,
The Natural Spin Turn and the Natural Turn (or other Natural figures) is much different from each other. While the 4th step of the Natural Spin Turn is taken with a pivot action, complete a half turn, the 4th step of the Natural Turn is simply Man's LF back. Later, we can find some other differences in the Rise and CBM, but not in this topic, right?

Did I forget something? If yes, it's better to leave for another topic, or I will become a talkative man

Best regards,
MSN

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make David. I didn't see anyone making excuses.

When you say your teacher gave alternate follows in your first IS group class, was it the groups first ever dance class? I doubt if many people over here could handle such options with less than an hours dance experience. They have enough trouble deciding which left foot to use.

in int'l style the room is splitted into 4 sides

1 long, 1 short, 1 long, 1 short sides. (if you have a round ballfloor this really sucks )
for every side you get a routine. for a beginners choreography you use 1 long & 1 short side then start over. she calls this wall 1 and wall 2.
a more advanced competition choreography includes 4 or 6 sides which are replacable. so the boy can make decisions which side to dance to avoid traffic jam. mostly in QF you use diagionals ,too.
there are long diagonals from one corner of the floor to the other and small diagonals from middle of a long side to a corner.

very very good couples ( in england this is used more often) the coreography desnt use sides any more. the couples get a choreography like a long track and they dance this along the line of dance around the floor. very difficult to over and underturn the variations (difficult variations !!)in the traffic and the different room sizes.

on a crowed floor this system isnt bad, because all couples moving around and you can avoid collisions. problems are allways couples that park on the floor with 4 times right, 4 times hesitation .... on the other hand there are enough rowdys around that run over you.

Hi Dave,

It's nice to read your report, much useful information and very clear. Thank you and hope to see more. This time I will share some thoughts with you and members.

- Class: as my understanding, your class is for beginners. Is this good for student to learn only one dance for such a long time (more than 8 classes I guess). In my city, those ussualy teach at least 2 dances / 2 hour class. And I think it's suitable since beginners ussualy feel bored with practising one dance day by day.

- The preliminary step: I think beginners shouldn't be taught to do this step early. They have to much to focus on, so the unusual step on beat 3 seems to be very hard for them. (This can be discussed later if anyone feel interested in). My own method: in the last class of the basic course, introduce the simple preliminary step with Man's RF side on 1, drag LF slowly toward RF over 2-3, into LF Closed Change, and then the Natural Turn.

- Natural or Reverse figure first?: it depends on the Man. The 2 directions most used in Waltz is facing DW and facing DC. True that one can take first a Reverse figure, bur is much easier and more "natural" to make a Natural figure first. It seems that there's nothing different between the Reverse Turn and the Natural Turn, but there's at least one reason. Since in the Natural Turn, the center of the turn is Man's R side, where he holds the Lady firmly and therefore control the turn better than in the Reverse Turn. Later in advanced level, dancers could start with whaterver they like. But, did you see that most of the competition couples start their routines with a Natural figure?

- Methodology: I will have no comments since I didn't attend the class . But I agree with you that, although Int'l style is for competition first, but dancers must firstly know how to lead and follow a figure, how to link between figures in a routine. The teachers didn't teach, they may have their own reasons

- Self teaching: it's great that you have documents and study your self. But it's better to have a good teacher to tell you how to do what, which should which shouldn't etc. Try as many manners as you can. Good luck!

- By the way, I still don't understand what "Wall 1" and "Wall 2" means

Best regards,
MSN

I am always amazed at the comments. I live in the USA and I have always been given alternate follows by my teachers. This includes my first group lesson in International. The only exception is coaching sessions with my partner where we have a set routine for competition. If you want to be sheep, there is always someone around who will lead you astray. Just don't use where you live as the excuse for not taking charge of your dance training.