Hi everyone,

Especial greeting to Jonathan -- good to see your web based dancing enterprise is still going strong. Looking forward to studying the video i ordered the other day.

I have gotten back into my dancing again now that I have moved back to the S.F. Bay Area. (Metronome Ballroom, S.F.) and will be starting actual Int'l Std lessons in May, yippee! In any case, I was thinking the other day that there is a disturbing asymmetry between lead and follow. While the leader has the opportunity to try out all of his/her steps, the follower will not in general be guaranteed of that. In particular, the follower may have gone to the trouble of learning a ton of cool patterns, but if the leader doesn't lead them, it is all wasted. Whereas a leader who has learned a ton of cool patterns can always choose to dance them.

Therefore it seems most fair for everyone to learn both parts and be able, when the music starts, to suavely ask their partner, "do you want to lead or follow?" -- or to change over partway through.

Comments?

Dave Goggin

Have you done horseback riding?

I had done it once, that they gave me an old horse who only goes where ever she wants to go. Don't ask me to carry her on my back....

Well, there kind of is, but it's called a Double Reverse Spin. I'm pretty sure that some years ago when I was starting out I asked some more advanced dancer(s) the same question. I forget exactly what they said the reason for the difference was. I suspect something about reverse pivots being harder to do in sequence than natural pivots due to the lady's position with respect to the man. While they're not exact opposites, it's about as close as you'll get, I think. Perhaps someone with a bit better knowledge of the figures can explain it some more.

As for ballroom latin, yeah, I think we're all aware that what we dance isn't the original. It's the ballroom style version of them. I can see why they wouldn't care so much for it since we, umm, corrupted? their dances. About standard/smooth though, *shrug*, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Personally, *that's* what I think of as dancing, a couple floating around the floor together, but everyone's different.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall

I made a typo actually... I don't backlead anymore, but I was backleading during the time that I was dancing with my old partner. It takes a lot of practice and effort (AND trust!) to let the *actual* leader take over.

Sure, leading is fine, but leave that to the person who DOES have an overview over the entire floor

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." - Horace

"About standard/smooth though, *shrug*, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Personally, *that's* what I think of as dancing, a couple floating around the floor together..."

I agree 100%.

DG

I'd like to echo Michelle's comments. It can be very useful to learn both parts. It helps to know what a follower needs from a lead, and how the two parts fit together and balance each other.
Back leading is a definite no-no.

I would query your original premise however. The leader _can_ choose what figures to dance, but should limit that choice to patterns the follower can follow. Couple this with having to fit in with other dancers on the floor you may find the choice is somewhat restricted.

On the other hand, depending on the leader, the follower my end up learning some new figures.


Enjoy your new classes.

Howard

>but when either one of the partners asks "do you >want to lead or follow?", they should also >change position accordingly:

Yes yes of course. I wasn't proposing any virtue to followers "back leading" but instead a true and complete role reversal. It feels a little weird to be in the opposite side but eventually I am sure everyone can get used to it. This kind of role symmetry should be no more strange than the rotation of players between different positions in volleyball.

Now for some moves, it just doesn't work -- the average guy is too tall for a convenient underarm turn without looking goofy, And the latin* dances have a strong gender bias where it doesn't work in reality, but happily in Smooth there is a lot of built-in symmetry.

Now for a question: Why is there a natural spin turn but no reverse spin turn?

Dave G.

*I had several Latino classmates in grad. school who assured me that neither International style nor American style latin dances had any resemblence to how they dance the dances of those names in their societies, therefore one is better to stick with Salsa. So I only dance the 'latin' dances socially just for fun. Also, the smooth dances didn't do anything for these people -- they viewed waltz, foxtrot, etc as cold and stiff -- hardly deserving to be called "dancing" at all. It was certainly an eye-opener, as was much else I learned from these folks.

A natural spin turn is a natural pivot turn with some extra turn on the end. If you danced a reverse pivot followed by drag hesitation you'd have something similar.

I think Dronak's probably right with the explanation relating to offset partner etc.

Did you know though that there is a double natural spin, which is the opposite of the DRS?

Howard

Learning both parts never hurts, but when either one of the partners asks "do you want to lead or follow?", they should also change position accordingly: the follower is in no position to offer a good lead. Frame makes the follower dependant of the leader. (I'm guessing that's why those roles were "designed" in the first place.)

Okay, I admit, when I first started dancing I've been backleading It actually came to the point where I was overpowering and my partner was entirely dependant on me! One of us was leading, but we'd still rush into other people, simply because I had no overview of the entire floor

I support learning both parts, it makes the leader/follower understand the "other role" better and will make them better leaders/followers.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." - Horace

I think this is something that's partially true. Yes, generally speaking the leader gets to choose which figures will be danced and the follower doesn't which means the follower may not get to dance all the steps she knows. However, the leader shouldn't necessarily dance all the steps he knows in every single dance either. Especially with someone you've never danced with before, it's best to start with the basics and simple figures and work up until you reach the follower's limit (she starts having trouble following figures). Then you know about the maximum level you can dance at with that follower. This level may not be equal to your maximum level, so you're not necessarily guaranteed to dance all the figures you know as a leader either. If someone can follow high level figures and you can lead them, feel free to dance them. But you shouldn't assume the lady can follow everything you can lead.

What you are kind of guaranteed as a leader is that you will only dance figures you do know. A follower has the opportunity to dance with many different leaders, each with his own repertoire of figures and patterns and with certain specific (maybe favorite) figures he's best at. Over the course of a night, the follower may get to dance every figure she knows by dancing with many different men. If she mixes around a lot, she will probably get a chance to dance lots of moves, maybe even some she hasn't learned in classes. So while the leader is limited to dancing only what he knows every time he gets on the floor, the follower has the advantage of never knowing *exactly* what she's going to get from her partner and can end up dancing a much greater variety of figures.

That being said, I don't think it's necessary to ask which part you want to dance before every single song. Not everyone knows the other part well enough to dance it. Some people may be quite happy dancing only their part all the time. However, it is good to learn the other part because it gives you a much better feeling of what your partner has to go through. Leaders trying to follow will learn how good and bad leads feel and how to wait for them without anticipating or backleading. Followers trying to lead will find out how much the men have to think about in general while trying to still keep the dance enjoyable. You will certainly gain some useful knowledge and experience by learning the opposite part if you have the time to do so.

--
James Marshall
marshall@astro.umd.edu
http://www.astro.umd.edu/~marshall